DamagedGoods

Because it sounds like a perfect subject for one of those Monty Python cartoon/skit things...

DamagedGoods

Probably more like tens or hundreds of thousands. But breaking those laws doesn't land you in torment for all of eternity. I would bet that the majority of them might get one a small fine and no more.

Great...in his infinite wisdom, God creates a fallible man with a limited mind, gives him one rule, and tells him that something he has never seen (and probably can't truly comprehend) will happen to him if he breaks it. Because God knows all, including the future, he knows the man will break the rule before he creates him, resulting in a horrible cascade of sin, evil, and death, but decides to go ahead with the whole mess anyway for his own entertainment and glorification. Sounds like quite an evil guy to me.

Does breaking any of God's OT laws cause harm to someone? Even the ones about what kinds of food you can't eat? Do those cause such a devastating cascade of sin that God had to make them illegal?

Finally, do you mean to say that there has never been a person in the history of the world that wasn't told about God's rules? I don't want the argument about how I can't excuse my lack of belief by citing a Pygmy tribe that never heard about Jesus - if your God has ever condemned someone to hell because they didn't follow his rules they were never told, I have no interest in serving him, even if someone provided me incontrovertible evidence of his existence and infinite authority.

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
And no one that you would committ a crime against, to get that lifetime of punishment for each crime even equals a trillionth of God's magnitude.

So? If god has such magnitude, why the hell would some insignificant little human committing some crime have any effect on him, or be of any concern to him? How is someone, for example, looking at Playboy committing a "crime" against such a god? Why the hell should such a supposedly infinitely powerful being care if Joe Blow looks at Playboy, or even steals a few bucks? Hasn't god supposedly given 'ole Joe free will? Doesn't he have anything better to do with his time than watching to see if Joe is looking at Playboy, marking up each little "crime" Joe commits so he can tack on an extra eternity of special torture for him, like helping some poor, starving, sick child? (I forgot - that would be interfering with that poor, starving, sick child's free will).

And remember that all those lifetimes of punishment, even put together aren't even a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillionth of eternity. Heck, that's not even a start of eternity.

Besides, would it be right to punish someone more for committing a crime against a rich, powerful person than a homeless person? No, it would not (but, unfortunately, it does happen).

How many times do I have to tell you - Hell is the absence of God.

So god isn't omnipresent? It's odd how some Xians can claim god is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and even omnibenevolent out of one side of their mouth while claiming he'll be absent from Hell for eternity, when his goddammed omnimax powers, esp. omnibenevolence, would be most useful. Another fine example of the cognitive dissonance-generating abilities of your all-powerful god that, due to his "awesome" power, has the right to squash us like bugs, and keep his foot on us for eternity!

And how many times do I have to tell you - Hell is absent, God is absent. Neither exist, except in your mind.

There is no force of good in Hell.

There is no force of "good" anywhere.

What would you get if you took all the evil in this world, and threw it in one place?

New Jersey?

Do you think it would be pleasant?

Never been there, never want to go (New Jersey, that is - Hell doesn't exist).

You want nothing to do with God - so Hell is the only place you can go - its a prison for souls.

One more thing that doesn't exist - souls. And it's not that I want nothing to do with your god - it's that I know that your god doesn't exist.

If God isn't there, where is anything but pain and torment gonna come from?

The real question, if god isn't there, where is pain and torment gonna come from? He and his followers seem to be the prime suppliers of those things on this earth, anyway.

You think Hell is bad?

No. It doesn't exist.

That should show you how important God is in our lives, whether you believe in Him or not - His good is what keeps this world from literally becoming Hell.

There's no god to not believe in, Magus. And the followers of mythical gods of the Abrahamic persuasion are what have introduced most of the hell into this world in the first place.

If you pulled God away from the Earth - we would experience a lifetime of pain and torment - infinitely more so than we do now.

Apparently not, since there's no god here now. Even then, if it was only for a lifetime, that would beat having an eternity of hell to worry about.

You don't want to be with God, cause you think He is a monster?

No. I know the Christian god, especially the monstrous, sadistic, cruel beast of a god you describe, doesn't exist. It's not that I don't want to be with your god, it's that your god ain't here, there or anywhere to be with - thank GOG. What I think is the concept of god that you portray here is depicted as a monster.

Thats exactly what Hell is - a place without God -

Well, then everywhere must be hell, because your god is nowhere.

and everything of God goes with Him - including peace, happiness, and love.

If that's what your god supposedly represents, then why did he create a system in which the majority of his creations would end up in a place without them and with only pain and torment for eternity? For, in spite of all your useless arguments to the contrary, if god created the universe, he created it with that sorry destiny for the insignificant little humans that he put there and which you claim he loves.


When are you gonna get it, Magus - the more you talk, the less I, and I would bet others, believe, or would ever want to believe, in the god you describe. I used to believe and, trust me, posts like yours serve to help convince me that I was right in my abandoning Christianity. I can't believe it took me so long to break away from it. The congnitive dissonance generated by such a primitive, bloodthirsty concept of god finally became too muc. Even after that, I still held onto the thought it might be possible that the Christian god exists, but not likely, but discussing these topics with you have convinced me, and allow me to now say with confidence, that the Christian god depicted in the Bible, the one I used to believe in, the one you portray here,, does not exist. If there is a god, it is not the blood-sacrifice-requiring, eternally-punishing monster you portray. And even if such a god exists, and is gonna chunk me in hell for eternity, it absolutely doesn't deserve to be worshipped and served.

But I suppose you're doing some good here - turning off a lurker here and there from your particular brand of sadistic Abrahamic religion with your "hellfire and brimstone" arguments, and convincing people like me that they came to the right conclusion. So thanks! Maybe we'll give you a medal or something. I wonder what your god will give you for that fine work?

Mageth

That's what I said - might makes right.

xsquid

I hereby surrender this thread.

I did not know you were a Jewish believer, Magus, so I did not realize I probably pushed a hot button: If the AntiChrist were an Israeli, would you follow him? I can see where that might be an uncomfortable idea. But it changes nothing, except that now I know I'm never gonna get a straight answer from you.
Now, you did say why you thought the rest of the world would be fooled, but it seems that no one is allowed to rebel against the AC. Strange, since even Lucifer challenged his Boss, and even Heaven--Heaven!--was the site of civil war. If it can happen THERE, why not here?
It's not going to happen, of course; the AC holds no more terror for me than Count Dracula does. But IF the Trib comes, and IF Xtians are on the run from quasi-satanic forces, I probably would shelter some. Even you. Not because I want brownie points with your God, but because any tyrant should be resisted. Keep that in mind. Jews have a long and honorable tradition of resistance to tyranny, and now I realize why--all others are a poor second to your Divine Despot.

By the way:
Well now! David's child by Bathsheba was murdered by God, which prevented that baby from growing up and becoming a greater conqueror than his father...right? See, Magus, you have no way of knowing HOW that baby might have grown up. Yes, abortion is a crap shoot--we could be killing another Jonas Salk--or another Josef Mengele. It's a flawed argument, and I'm surprised you'd use it. But that's another thread.

Thanks to all--I really didn't think this would run so long. Now I'm just going to sit back and watch--and put in my $0.02 worth now and then.

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
Do you think you could ever follow the some 600+ OT laws perfectly? God knew we couldn't do it, which is why He planned to do it himself all along

Let's just look at one of those laws, Magus. I don't know if you're a parent or not, but suppose you had a child and that child cursed you (I think you mentioned being "hateful to your parents" as a sin earlier). Well, that child would be breaking the OT law, right? Bad kid.

But what did the OT law say to do about that? Kill the kid. That's what.

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

I have a child, and I love him so much that I would never even remotely think about killing him, or allowing him to be killed, for cursing me. But your god, in his Law, would require me to. I would not ever serve or worship a god that would require me, or any other parent, to kill a child, or to consent to having their child killed, for simply cursing them - either now or 2500 years ago.

This is one of many examples in the bible where I plainly see that my sense of morals are higher than your god's sense of morals, and where my love is greater than your god's love.

Now I ask you: Would you kill your child, or even allow your child to be killed, if he or she cursed you, because it was God's Law? And keep in mind that, if you didn't do that, or even prevented it from being done, you would be breaking God's Law. "He must be put to death". So would you obey God's law and kill your child for cursing you?

And don't bother with the bit about "that's the OT law, Jesus fulfilled it!" Jesus condoned the law, and said that any that broke even the least of them was guilty - and that would include not killing your own child for cursing you. And if that's not enough to prevent you from trying to weasel out of it, you are a Jew; imagine that you were alive 2500 years ago, living as a Jew under the Law. Would you have obeyed God's law and killed your child?

Magus55

Thats because God is also just and righteous. But in Heaven, who is there to judge? Everyone in heaven will have been found not guilty of their crimes - so God has no reason to judge us. Judgement comes to those who reject His pardon, and remain guilty as charged.

Magus55

Ok, lets use your lame attempt at proof Mageth. I know that my God does exist. So I guess he does, because I know he does, just you like you know He doesn't, because you said so. Sorry doesn't work. Go search the entire universe, under every rock, every star, every grain of sand before you claim you know God doesn't exist.

Mageth

Talking about lame attempts...

I don't have to search the entire universe. Your god is supposed to be omnipresent, right? Therefore, he should be under the first rock I look under. <looking>. Nope, not there. Therefore, your god doesn't exist. Alternatively, you sometimes claim that your God is outside the universe, outside of time, and thus unfindable. How could I find it under a grain of sand?

What good would a god be that hid himself away in a remote corner of the universe, under a grain of sand on a beach of a planet in some far-off galaxy, BTW?

And then you have the problem of Allah, and Vishnu, and Thor, and all the other gods that humans have believed in. Under your rules, you can't claim to know they don't exist until you search the entire universe. You can't claim that your God is the Only God until you search the entire universe. And note that some of those gods aren't claimed to be omnipresent, so you really would have to search the entire universe to claim those gods don't exist.

And note that the Moslem knows that Allah exists, the Hindu knows that Vishnu exists, etc. I also know that none of these gods exists, though Vishnu seems more likely than your God. I would imagine that you would claim the same.

Fortunately, I don't have to search the entire universe. I can conclude that your God doesn't exist, can positively claim that it doesn't exist, sitting right here in my chair. The total lack of evidence, the cobbled-together contradiction-filled Bible from which your definition of God is extracted, the fact that large portions of the Bible are obviously man-invented myth (e.g. the Genesis creation account) or legend (e.g. the life and exploits of Jesus, Master of the Universe) and not history are enough to convince me that the biblical God does not exist.

Your God does not exist.

Further, you're making the positive claim that your God exists. It's up to you to provide support for your claim that your God exists, not for me to prove my assertion that your God doesn't exist. Until evidence is provided that your God exists, the rational position is to not believe in that god.

Yellum Notnef

So Jeff Dahmer killed and ate people BUT right before he died he accepted Jesus as his lord/master/savior/whatever and now he's in Heaven.

I,OTOH,never killed or ate anyone nor have I ever committed any crimes at all except for being BORN sinful due to some mythical shit that has nothing at all to do with me. AND I have occasionally had a laugh at those like Magus who feel the ned to share this boloney with everyone.
Other than that I've done nothing at all to anyone,but because I don't want to play this fantasy game with Magus and accept Jesus as my master,I'm going to suffer after I die while a monster like Dahmer goes to paradise with Magus.

I don't know why I still come here and read this shit anymore.:banghead:

Sorry Magus,but this God/Heaven/Hell business is retarted with a capital R.
There has to be something better you can waste your life obsessing about.