Philosoft

One of my close friends, a Catholic, told me she prays for me at various times. Because we had spent some time prior talking about our respective beliefs, or lack thereof, I wasn't really surprised or irritated by what she said. Christians pray because that's what they do. I don't think it's something that is necessarily intended to engender moral or metaphysical superiority.

As an atheist, I try to make it clear to those who are interested, that I simply don't believe in God or the attendant theological doctrines. Because that part of my worldview consists almost entirely of a negative attribute, it doesn't surprise me that people are often ignorant of the things that might offend me. They simply don't know because either (a) they hold an incorrect concept of atheism or (b) the correct, but generally conceptually empty concept of atheism reveals nothing about my putative belief system.

I do understand why the phrase "I'll pray for you" might offend - I used to be one of the offendees. Now, however, I think there's simply a greater difference in mutual understanding than I thought previously.

Ennazus

I wrote this on my cast! Suzanne

The Naked Mage

Queen of Swords

Diarrhea : the demons of atheism leaving your body in response to the prayer.

Rhea

As someone who is actively offended by prayer, I'll take a go at this one.

I've thought a lot about intercessory prayers like this. Now, bear in mind, this is all predicated on the assumption that you believe prayer actually does something.

I used to say, "Look, if you honestly believe that prayers actually work, then, I beg you, do not spend one picosecond, do not fire a single neuron in a request for me to not slide my car on the way home (or whatever). I'm wearing a seatbelt, and I have snowtires. (Or I have a good doctor and it will surely heal soon). Instead, I beg of you, please, please pray for abused children. Pray non-stop. Don't even think of my puny need - it's not a need at all. I am relatively healthy, happy and solvent. Those poor, poor kids. Please, pray for them."

It would OFFEND me if prayer actually worked and it was spent on me instead of an abused child. The IDEA that you think God will turn his gaze at your request, and you are making a request about my stupid drive home instead of an abused child for whom, perhaps, NO ONE is praying, just turns my stomach.


Now, well I still pretty much say the above. But I've thought about it a lot. What's my problem? Why does it bother me? Why am I offended?

The problem, I concluded, is that prayer requests are indistinguishable from CORRUPTION. Say you have a relationship with the Mayor. And you know he respondeds to requests. As long as you have the currency. So you give your currency to the Mayor, and he makes sure your street gets paved whenever you request it. A few more dolloars, you get regular police patrols, too.

Meanwhile, all of the people who DON'T have the money, they aren't getting looked after by the good Mayor. That. Is. Corruption. That's not how good people interact. The streets are supposed to get paved when they need it. The patrols to go where they are needed. By impartial study of needs, not by responding to bribes of people with money (and the will to bribe for results).

COMPARE.

You've got prayer (the currency). You may _even_ have a lot of friends who have the currency, too. You all pray for your friend Atheist**Suzanne. You all offer your bribe to the Mayor, and her street gets paved.

Yet, little abused Janie. She doesn't have anyone praying for her. Too bad, Janie. You don't have the money to bribe the Mayor. Potholes for you. Ho-hum.


...

So people who say "I'm praying for you" represent, to me, people who think a system of bribery and corruption is a reasonable, nay _admirable_ way to exist.

And I disagree vehemently. I think corruption and bribery is barbaric, hurtful and inhumane.

Now you know. Now you know how someone could be offended by it. It's corruption - if you really believe it works - and I honestly can't believe that good people who do think prayer works can go through life doing ANYTHING aside from praying on their knees until all of the children are safe.

Calzaer

Rhea:
:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

I love it!

brighid

If God is omniscient wouldn’t He already know that said person needs help, and therefore what difference would a million people praying make? Furthermore, why should it make a difference? Why does this God need Father So and So, or Ms. Mary Do Gooder of the Main Street, USA Church to pray for the health, well being, etc. of any person? If He is not motivated to cure, help, rectify, or say end abuse without the mournful and begging pleas aimed as intervention by well-intentioned believers, and moreover it must be the right kind of prayer (which no one knows the exact formula of), and must be of a certain degree of sincerity (again no one knows because this God and His Will is unknowable) … well, doesn’t this lead to questioning the actual nature of His alleged omniscience and the “loving, just, compassionate, and pure” nature of his being? A wholly loving, perfect and compassionate God could not (by nature of His perfection) NEED, or require the supplication of prayers of any degree of sincerity to right a wrong, cure the sick, feed the hungry, or protect innocent people from the tyranny of despotic leaders.

So if this perfect deity cannot, by His very nature need, or require proper stated and sincere prayers to motivate His action why pray? Except for the selfish comfort it gives one (through the biochemical release of endorphins, etc. that happen regardless if one prays to Jesus, meditates on a rock, etc.) and the false idea that prayer does indeed motivate this God to do what He has thus far chosen to ignore. I would say that is a bit egocentric … believing an all powerful deity does the bidding of some through this act of prayer.

Brighid

Kintaro

Time for a non-christian analog on this.


2001.8.23 (or so).... I come home from an exam in calculus, and I'm on a bike going at about 40 km/h on a bridge. The bridge has a steep ramp at the end. I can clear this easily, except there were a bunch of (sic) morons who thought that chatting to each other side-by-side was a bright idea. 7 people side-by-side to be exact. So I can't brake really because the hill's incline gives me a greater force than what I can brake, I reach 60 km/h, and I try to cut throughthe almost-large enough space without clipping the last lady. So I clip the bridge, and I get projected a good 8 metres with another 6 in drag. I had a concussion, and I was bleeding from scrapes on the head. So people call an ambulance for me, and then some guy who possibly could have been some energy expert (TM) was helping me heal by sharing his flow of positive ki.

You do the math. Nah, I will.

+ Scraped head and legs
+ Concussion
+ ambulance call
+ positive ki ???

= Scraped head and legs
+ Concussion
+ ambulance arriving due to call
+ Jack shit from the ki master or whatever
+ Gravol IV for the concussion
+ 8 full bedpans of vomit
+ 3 jugs of urine since I had to pee a lot and I couldn't get up.
+ Stitches (4 suture points)

(+ 45 minutes in the waiting room since Quebec health care is a joke)

I have a real spiritual catholic uncle who would always pray for me despite him knowing I was an atheist, but he'd get me what I needed when I needed it. (4 of the bedpans, 2 urine jugs, a 7-up and a blanket.)

Any other type of 'prayer' should be deemed illegal. What isn't good for you is just another poison.

Prayer and please,(prière et plaire) don't they have the same word roots or smething ? When I ask "Please help me" though, I expect help, not a prayer. I'm lucky that I got it.


EDIT : There is a saying "God helps those who help themselves", I think the reason that saying was put into place was because there was a time where no one was doing anything to help each other but pray. It's atheist equivalent is : "Do something about it already."

Ennazus

Rhea, I've never looked at it this way. I've considered prayer a waste of time certainly, but I've not considered the bribery and corruption implications. Thanks for a new view. Suzanne

Rhea

Hoping for a comment from Amie or other christians learning for the first time how people can be offended by prayer.

Comments?
Rebuttal?