JGL53

Really? Wow! Might just be all that f-ing rice - I would tend to initially doubt it's all the fish, snake, rat, bugs and similar high protein foods they love to consume.

Some one should do some 'studies'. In the meantime, maybe they should just drink water and eat NOTHING until several independent and corroborative long-term double blind cross over studies are completed. No sense for the Chinese to take any unnecessary chances with their health.

Godot

JGL53:
From the vitriolic nature of your last two posts in this thread, I would suggest you need to take a timeout.
Step away from the computer. Take a nap, get laid, seek professional help, whatever. Hysterics hamper your credibility.
If you restate your contentions in a more civil tone, then I may be inclined to respond to them. Until then...

JGL53

So, you really consider my rather mild sarcasm as 'hysterics' , 'vitrolic", and 'uncivil'? What a shelterd life you must lead! But you should reread some of YOUR earlier posts here. How would a disinterested person charactorize words and phrases like "bullshit' (used SEVERAL times), "If you said that next to me, I would slap you silly.", "...doesn't count for shit", "garbage not worth the time it takes to refute", "the entire thing is crap.", "what the hell", "Lying weakens his credibility.", and "straighten the damn thing (one's diet) out".

Apparently you would agree with the actual "vitrolic" attacks on me at 'Moral Foundations and Principles' in the last several pages of the thread "Slippery slope of abortion - terminate when".
It was pointed out there that I am stupid and an idiot. These are arguments I find almost impossible to refute (possibly because I AM stupid and an idiot).

I don't really think such bad things about you. I just believe you are misguided in placing FAR too much trust in authoritative pronouncements and theorizing in an area of life that LONG TERM personal experience is the proof each individual should (and generally does) accept.

I have every hope that the twisted and false ideas that presently hold sway over your mind regarding dietary theory will be ameliorated more and more as time goes on, and the facts come out, until you can accept that steak and eggs, without toast or hash browns OR juice, is a perfectly healthy breakfast for those who CHOOSE to consume such (at present, there is no evidence to the contrary, no matter how counterintuitive such ideas strike you).

I may not be the best judge of such, since I am so prejudiced by my SEVEN years of personal experience with what 'works' for me, diet-wise, but it SEEMS to me, so far, that EVERY argument you and others have made against the Atkin's diet has been thoroughly and profoundly refuted (and more specifically your original ten numbered anti-Atkins arguments). THAT is what my last two posts were about - I was doing a little dance on your grave, so to speak.

If you disagree, then arise, and haunt us anew. I am here for you. I am retired now, and can be here for you 24/7, if you need me.

((As an asided, I am a pharmacist and therefore have the minimum scientific background and training required to do the research, if necessary, and match you study for study, if you desire. Drugs may not be as complex a subject as food, but I think I can hang with you.))

So, if you have an argument on the subject you believe is best,
or you believe you have knowledge of some pertinent facts to which you believe we all should be exposed, then start key-punching.

And try and have a nice day. I'm having a wonderful one myself.

Nuno Figueira

Hysterics = hysterical asterisks??

JGL53

Nuno Figueira - From your next to last post I get the feeling you may be familiar with the Paleolithic or Neanderthin dietary plan. Personally, I like dairy too much to ever be happy on Neanderthin. What do you think of it in comparison to Atkins? And BTW, are you familiar at all with the other major controlled-carb dietary lifestyles - Protein Power, Carb Addicts diet, Sugarbusters, the GO diet, and the Zone? - if so, what's your evaluation of them

Kvalhion

I've been doing a bit more reading about the Atkins diet since this thread started. From what I understand, one of the main issues with the Atkins diet is if it works, it might work too well. In other words, depriving your body of carbs will make your body starved for carbs. IF you stay on the diet for an extended period of time, and slowly reintroduce yourself to eating carbs, then you can slowly go back to "normal", if you will. Some people, however, after doing the induction phase and staying on Atkins for a while, go back to eating like they did before the diet and experience a backlash - they gain back all the weight they lost and put on another 20 lbs or so. So, it seems like if you choose Atkins as the way to go , you better be pretty dedicated about staying on it. If you are going to be dedicated about staying on a diet, it seems like maybe there are other diets to stick to that aren't as potentially dangerous.

In the Atkins Diets favor, eating a bunch of protein and certain kinds of fat and letting yourself decide when you've had enough is probably one of the more easy diets to stick with. The resulting bad breath and muscle fatigue can be a bit worrisome, though. Vitamin supplementation seems to be very important, especially for calcium.

I was wondering if people who follow the Atkins diet have to be in ketosis in order to lose weight? Are those who are at the maintenance level only trying to maintain their current weight? Would the Atkins-style of diet be effective at all if you ate low-fat protein and minimal carbs but did not put yourself into ketosis? Or does that defeat the point?

I think for now I will continue with what the Zone perscribes, only I will experiment a bit in making sure I am not eating too many unfavorable carbs while still having enough to not go into ketosis. Eating low fat sources of proteins with low glyxemic carbohydrates still makes the most sense to me.

JGL53

Kvalhion - If you want to learn more about the Atkins diet, what it is, and what it isn't, I would recommend you go to Atkinscenter.com There is a FAQ there and other information.

I would also recommend you check out atkinsfriends.com
It's a very 'busy' site - I believe they also have a FAQ. I think you would find some of the discussions on the BBs there interesting. There are several interesting BBs just on the topic of exercise - e.g., one is on the Body for Life (BFL) regimen, and one is on how Atkins in the various phases works with exercise.

There is also a recipe list there, so you can see what types of food people can and do eat who choose a low carb lifestyle.

Re your comment about people who do Atkins, then go off the diet and gain it all back, or even more:
Correct. This also happens with Ornish, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, Deal a Meal, Slim Fast, Optifast, Nutrifast, Physicianis Weight Loss, Hollywood diet, Scarsdale diet, you name it.

Too many people are still in this ridiculous mode of thinking that they will diet for a TEMPORARY period, loose the weight, then go back to eating a 'regualr' diet, only cut back and eat less to maintain their loss.

It would be nice if it worked that way, but 99 times out of a hundred, it doesn't. One must change one's way of eating permanently, or, as Dr. Atkins put it, "You're going to be on this diet for the next fifty years".

A dietary lifestyle must offer proper nutrition, be 'real' food you can buy anywhere, it must (most importantly) be palatable, i.e, be foods that satisfy your hunger utterly, have plenty of variety, and be foods that you WANT to eat, not what you HAVE to eat.

If you read the books, understand the diet, and educate your self, all these criteria CAN be met without that much trouble, the protestations of ignorant critics of low carb diets notwithstanding.

One final point. Low carb is not and has never been JUST about getting rid of unwanted or unneeded body fat. Atkins was a cardiologist. He used the diet to treat even thin people with no weight problem for heart conditions, diabetes, hypoglycemia, cholesterol problems (HDL is usually increased and triglycerides greatly decreased on the diet), and the diet has been shown to even help or cure conditions like chronic indigestion/diarrhea/or constipation, and problems like unhealthy hair, skin, or nails.

I am convinced beyond any reasonable doubt it (in effect) cured my migraine with auras headaches from which I had suffered for almost thirty years. This was an unexpected side effect that improved my life in a far more important way than loosing the roll of fat from my waist.

If you have further questions, email me.

keyser_soze

Most of the people I know on the maitenance side are not in ketosis, and haven't been for a very long time. Basically they are on a regular diet, sans mega carb intake, and are doing fine. My wife hasn't been in ketosis for a very long time, but she is still gradually losing. To me, the diet in it's early changes just readjusts your metabolism back to where it should be, and in maitenance mode you are just on a general healthy diet. It obviously works for some people, and studies are bearing it out well, so I would think further research is necessary, but not required for the attempt. If I could just kick the breads and milk....

Godot

JGL53:
I think you and I are going to have to agree that we will be irreconcileable on this issue. If it works for you and you're happy with it, then so be it. I propose we keep the discussion on neutral ground from here on in, hmm?
Despite exhortations to remain openminded to the options, I don't believe I will ever be capable of recommending a diet like Atkins to anybody, irrespective if the evidence shows it to be no worse than anything else.
Vitamin supplementation is one of those necessities in a restricted-intake diet, largely because of the range of foods that happen to be excluded or minimised. You may think that a vitamin supplement is advantageous or 'good insurance', and you're entitled to your opinion. Supplementation is useful if not necessary for certain sub-groups of the population, but is superfluous given a balanced diet (and a 'normal population). I find a diet requiring vitamin supplementation to be sorely lacking; modifying your intake makes eminently more sense to me. Electing not to do so in favour of popping a pill is lazy.

As an aside, you said:I have no doubt you can match me study for study (if not outpace me), but we both know that might doesn't make right; it's the quality and synthesis of the data that determines what is "right".
Food and nutrition is an eminently complicated (and therefore confusing and contradictory) subject. This comes from both the inter-individual differences and the fact that we know hardly anything. Most of the chemicals that comprise the foods we eat have yet to identified, and the ones we do know about we hardly know anything about their interactions within the human organism.

Kvalhion

Thanks for the info. I have looked at Atkinsfriends.com and Atkinscenter.com, mostly for the FAQs. I'll continue to take a look at it, and will probably read Atkins book to learn more.

It seems like the Atkins diet and the Zone do have a lot in common; the maintenance mode in the Atkins diet sounds very similar to the Zone. I guess the big question for me is if following the phases of the Atkins diet before going for the maintenance mode is the right way to go. For some it really works great, for others they experience side effects that do not make it worthwhile.

I think the reason that there is such a backlash is because the methods of losing the weight are not what I would consider normal. In other words, they are either trying to trick the body into burning fat or are using an artificial method for weight loss other than the standard lower calorie be-careful-of-what-you-eat diet. As soon as someone leaves the diet, their body, which has assumed they were starving or something similar, packs away all the food intake which is why there is such a backlash. That in addition to most people who have the mental idea that they have "blown" their diet will usually binge on sugary carbs.

Most people who follow a low carb, moderate protein diet will lose about 1.5 to 2.0 lbs a week, and it seems like the same thing applies for people following the Atkins diet while in ketosis.

I'll do some more personal research into Atkins to see if its a good choice for me. I've been following the Zone off and on for about a year. The times I have been following it, its worked for me quite well. Yet inevitably there comes a time or a situation where I will stop following the Zone, and thus I haven't achieved the health I have been striving for. Thus, there is certainly an appeal of being able to follow Atkins and stay on Atkins. Either way, I see it as a risk, and I just want to be reasonably assured of success before I put my health further at stake.