Stephen T-B

“It's a necessary evil in this cursed world.”

A revealing comment.
“This cursed world.”
Is that how you really see it, Christian?
If so, then the remark illustrates the fundamental difference between our outlooks.
“A cursed world,” suggests it has been cursed by something or someone; it is an idea which implies a divine judgment, and I have to say that I am deeply grateful that I don’t share that doom-laden sense.
The World, to me, is the perfectly natural consequence (it cannot be anything else) of perfectly natural processes which are as indifferent to my well-being and welfare as the sea, the wind, the rain and the sun. I’m here. I take my chances and sooner or later I’ll die. I am content.
I don’t need to struggle, as you do and Radoth does, with ludicrous concepts of heaven and hell, nor must I attempt to make sense of the irreconcilable consequences of contradictory beliefs.
I am a very comfortable atheist.
I think a Christian who claimed to be “very comfortable” would be deemed, by other Christians, to be very much off the rails. It’s simply not expected.

Radorth

Oh sure you are Helen. Many skeptics say so and rush to your defense. I don't suppose your feelings of unpopularity cause you to avoid offending anyone? (Except Christians you specially target)

As I said, you INVARIABLY start these negative exchanges, and I do not get that your motive is discussion at all. Sorry. Nice face you put on it though, if discussion isn't your motive. You might want to make sure you understand Romans 14 before disputing with the weaker members.

Rad

Dr Rick

There is no logical reason to assume disobedience must result in suffering, and no logical argument has been provided to show why it must.

There is no logical reason to assume alleviation of suffering must encourage stupidity, and no logical argument has been provided to show why it must.

An omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving god could make the universe any way he wanted and do all that is possible, and neither allowing disobedience without suffering nor alleviating suffering without encouraging stupidity would be impossible for him.

Rick

Stephen T-B

Perhaps HelenM doesn’t see her role here as preaching to others...

“4. Many will repent when they see the supernatural world for the first time, as we know from the testimony of thousands of people who have had NED's. They do not remain unaffected.”

What do you make of this: “Heavenly” near-death experiences are common the world over, regardless of the local religious beliefs?
A PhD student who is studying the subject and whom I spoke to about it mentioned several “non-Christian” locations from where they are reported.
Why be a Christian if being a Hindu also gets you to Heaven?
(And HelenM - no promptings, please.)

Radorth

Huh? Examples please.

Pesonally I think atheists here, with some exceptions, are extremely uncomfortable, given how thy come in to crap on the thread, make off-topic comments, resort to personal attacks, their endless and pedantic preaching to the choir, their making up wild and cynical theories about who the apostles were and why Jesus never existed at all, their assertions that evolution and science tells us how the world originated, etc.

They want Jesus to go away, the cross to go away, and the idea they could be sinners and hypocrites themselves go away. Until then they will not be comfortable.

And I don't buy you are one of the comfortable ones. They stick out like sore thumbs around here and are alone worthy to be called free-thinkers.

Rad

Rhea

I added an edit that you may not have seen regarding this train of thought...

So the motivated soldiers STILL take initiative and make things happen and follow you, even though they are constrained from floating, becoming invisible or blinking themselves back to their livingrooms to catch The Bachelorette on Tuesdays. They just can't do those things, they probably don't even consider their absence, or if they do it's not with resentment or any real longing. They just don't have that option available. It's physically impossible. And they're okay with it, aren't they?


No, actually, it's not beside the point. (did you see my dentist analog?) It's very much the point. And it carries out in many many facets of my daily life. I can handle not being a full-on vegan because I don't see killing a cow or carrot as being the cause of suffering. Yet I would actively work to make the killing humane (poor carrot though, not many choices there). Two people hit with a 2x4 do NOT suffer equally, in my world.
Wrath. The emotions "wrath" evokes in me are unresolvably incompatible with omnipotence/omniscience/omnibenevolence which is a requirement of a "god" in my mind. It is not even compatible with "wisdom" in my little world. This does not compute. I'm afraid I can't answer it because it just makes no sense at all to me. I have never met a wise person who feels wrath. It just doesn't compute. Sorry. (winces and backs away) Wish I could engage you on it but I can't.

Radorth

I never said you had to be. But like Peck who was a Zen Buddhist, the more you really study, the more you see that Christ represented God, and the grace of God- which alone have the power to change anything. You also have to earn your way to heaven, get your Karma right, be reincarnated, etc. It's a self-salvation philosophy which any sane person who hears God's offer in the NT will give up in a minute. Actually the greatest hindrance to becoming a Christian IMO is simple self-righteousness and the fantasy of self-salvation.

Rad

Rhea

I'm going to put this by its ownself...



I cannot float.
When I go down stairs, I can choose to step, or jump, or run. I can choose to step on every stair or every other. I can choose to slide on the rail. I can choose to slide down on my tummy. I can even choose to fall.

But one thing I canNOT do, is float. That choice is not available to me.

Am I a robot?
Do I resent this?
Does this constraint mean I will not give the stairs my full attention, resolve and effort?
I am only "allowed" to choose between things that conform to gravity.
Does this mean my life is not worth living?

I cannot float. The choice is not available to me.

Yet, I am still happy.
I even seek out stairs for the sake of my waistline.

It is not a contradiction.
I cannot float.
I am better than content. I am still free, albeit contrained by gravity.

(I'm off to go climb 12 flights for my noon walk. See you in 30 minutes...)

Stephen T-B

Radorth “It's a self-salvation philosophy which any sane person who hears God's offer in the NT will give up in a minute.”
So anyone who hears the offer but doesn’t give up “the self-salvation philosophy” is insane?
You’ve an interesting view of the world, Rad.

“Personally I think atheists here, with some exceptions, are extremely uncomfortable...”
Sure of that? As sure as you are that Blondegoddess never really was a Christian; that none of the atheists here really wanted to share the certainty of god’s existence which was evinced by their families and friends?
You have a gift, Rad, for knowing things about us which we didn’t even know ourselves.

These are things you say you don’t like about us: “endless and pedantic preaching to the choir, their making up wild and cynical theories about who the apostles were and why Jesus never existed at all, their assertions that evolution and science tells us how the world originated, etc.” (Evolution and science do not tell us how the world originated, but that’s by the way.)

OK. You are entitled to be irritated by these things. Are we, then, entitled to be irritated by Christians who preach to the choir, believe uncorroborated stories about who the apostles were and highly improbable stories about the life and death of Jesus, and assert that evolution and science do not help us understand the natural world in which we find ourselves?

You asked for examples of Christians having to make sense of the irreconcilable consequences of contradictory beliefs.

The OT God / the NT God ; the God of wrath / the God of love; the God of war / the God of Peace; the visible God / the invisible God; the miracle-making God / the God that won’t do the necessary miracles to prevent human suffering; the God that answers Mrs Jones’s prayer for better health / the God that doesn’t answer Mrs Smith’s prayer; the God that speaks to Mr Winston with clarity / the God that never spoke to Mr Houston; the God of the Muslims / the God of the Roman Catholics / the God of the Southern Baptists / the God of the Jews / the God of the Davidians / the God of the Mormons / your God / HelenM’s God / the God that approved of Apartheid / the God that blesses mixed-race marriages; the loving God that gave us Free will / the God which punishes us for all eternity if we don’t use it right; the God which allows us Free Will in Heaven, but we’re only in Heaven because we’ve learned not to disobey him.

I’m exhausted now.

GunnerJ

Then you admit that any existing Jesus is currently dead? Your forfiet his calim to divinity?

Calling a concrete example of greater suffering that Jesus an "emotional appeal" is the most underhanded rhetorical slight of hand I've seen in a long time. Not even Ed would stoop that low. Bravo.

Nonesense. Consider the cauterization of a wound. In the olden times, if someone removed an arrow from your body, it would have to be sanitized by burning the flesh in the wound. Now, to someone who didn't know this, the pain of having a red-hot iron thrust into a gaping, bleeding wound would only be enhanced by the psychological torment of thinking that the people doing this to you are malisciously torturing you. However, if you know why they're doing it, it's easier to live with the pain. Consider why young children are afraid of visiting the dentist: they don't fully understand the purpose of their discomfort.

Unsubstantiated claim. Provide evidence that Jesus underwent any "psycholgoical torment" because of the "wrath" of "the Father" (who was also Jesus, apperently) inflicted on him (by himself, if we are to believe the Xian claim). You might start by showing that there is a "Father" to have wrath, and then explaining why this "Father" is beating his "Son," who is himself, for someone else's crimes. It would also be helpful to understand how someone can be his own son and his own father (I'm assuming time travel doesn't figure into Christian theology).

Also, since you have, strangely for a Christian, conceded that Jesus is currently dead and unable to reap the fruits of his religion, then we might consider the whole life of our two case examples. Most of Jesus' life, it seems, was little better or worse than his contemporaries, and was considerably better for the period in which he had the support of a fanatical cult following. Our other example, though, was in considerably worse shape for her whole life.