Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SecularFuture · 06-04-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Even the most closed fundamentalist mind will cave in to a steady diet of enlightenment. It takes tremendous patience and perseverance but it works (unless the fundie runs away).

This is a good point.

SecularFuture · 06-04-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Heck, I used to be a fundamentalist, so I'm living proof that they can be deconverted. Though I have to admit, I thought God somehow used evolution while simultaneously creating life the way Genesis described. Don't ask me how that worked.

How did you convert?
What were the steps that you took?

[you don't have to go into too much detail]
[giving details can be quite time consuming]

Queen of Swords · 06-04-2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by SecularFuture
How did you convert?
What were the steps that you took?

When I was a fundamentalist, I always worried about my Muslim friends (I grew up in the Middle East). Weren't they going to hell? How could I save them? And what about good, decent, intelligent people like Mahatma Gandhi and Isaac Asimov? How could God send them to hell too?

Then I went to the States and entered college, and I started feeling less enthusiastic about Christianity. To me, it was a religion of guilt, self-loathing and contradictions; I couldn't even have a sexual fantasy without either worrying that God wouldn't like it or worrying because I wasn't worrying about God's approval. In the end, I went to see a therapist and told him that I was afraid I wasn't a good Christian any more. He told me "there are many ways to the top of the mountain but the view is the same". That didn't help.

This was the University of Georgia, and the Bible-thumpers used to come to the Tate Center plaza to scream at any woman wearing pants. One day I saw a student firing back at them, saying the bible contained all kinds of contradictions, and he read some out from a sheaf of paper. I asked him if I could take a look at his printouts, and I wrote down the website at the top of the page - this website.

I read all of Don Morgan's lists and several other articles, and then did a quick search of the UGA library. It was news to me that there were other people who managed to do fine without religion; I had often felt abnormal and alone up till then. I found precisely one book in the library, but it was Madalyn Murray O'Hair's All the questions you ever wanted to ask American Atheists, with all the answers, and she was so blunt and forceful that the last rusty links of my brain-chains crumbled to bits. From that moment on, I decided that I would never be ashamed to call myself an atheist and stand up for the freedom to live without religion.

<credits roll>

Pyrrho · 06-04-2003, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Originally posted by SecularFuture
How did you convert?
What were the steps that you took?

When I was a fundamentalist, I always worried about my Muslim friends (I grew up in the Middle East). Weren't they going to hell? How could I save them? And what about good, decent, intelligent people like Mahatma Gandhi and Isaac Asimov? How could God send them to hell too?

Then I went to the States and entered college, and I started feeling less enthusiastic about Christianity. To me, it was a religion of guilt, self-loathing and contradictions; I couldn't even have a sexual fantasy without either worrying that God wouldn't like it or worrying because I wasn't worrying about God's approval. In the end, I went to see a therapist and told him that I was afraid I wasn't a good Christian any more. He told me "there are many ways to the top of the mountain but the view is the same". That didn't help.

This was the University of Georgia, and the Bible-thumpers used to come to the Tate Center plaza to scream at any woman wearing pants. One day I saw a student firing back at them, saying the bible contained all kinds of contradictions, and he read some out from a sheaf of paper. I asked him if I could take a look at his printouts, and I wrote down the website at the top of the page - this website.

I read all of Don Morgan's lists and several other articles, and then did a quick search of the UGA library. It was news to me that there were other people who managed to do fine without religion; I had often felt abnormal and alone up till then. I found precisely one book in the library, but it was Madalyn Murray O'Hair's All the questions you ever wanted to ask American Atheists, with all the answers, and she was so blunt and forceful that the last rusty links of my brain-chains crumbled to bits. From that moment on, I decided that I would never be ashamed to call myself an atheist and stand up for the freedom to live without religion.

<credits roll>

QueenofSwords, you are an excellent example of what I was referring to in my post above. You cared about consistency, and that made it possible to convert you.

In my opinion, fundamentalism is far more rational than "liberalism" in religion. If the Bible is really to be taken seriously, then they are right, and if it is not to be taken seriously, then there is absolutely no foundation for Christianity at all. Yet there are people who are so irrational that they reject the Bible, but still accept Christianity!

SecularFuture · 06-04-2003, 02:16 PM

QueenofSwords
Excellent story! Its kind of sad that you had to go through all of that though.

So the moral of this story is......
Fundy-ism can be destroyed by common sense?

Aravnah Ornan · 06-04-2003, 02:20 PM

I agree with what's been said about converting a fundy vs. converting a religious liberal. If a fundy takes an all-or-nothing approach to the scriptures of her faith, and if you make a convincing case that she cannot accept the "all," that leaves her with the "nothing." That's assuming, of course, that the fundy in question hasn't completely renounced logic.

On the other hand, arguing scripture with a religious liberal is like nailing oatmeal to a wall; he'll just say that the parts of the scripture that you're pointing out to him are not part of the nebulous "essence" of the scriptures that he accepts. For example, when a religious liberal started talking to me the other day about the Ten Commandments, I pointed out to him that the Bible has multiple, widely varying versions of said Commandments. That was news to him, and what's more, he didn't seem to think it mattered at all as long as he felt a certain way in his heart.

That being said, let me tell you what didn't deconvert me and then tell you what did.

1. When an atheist yammered on about some sort of emotion-driven, "I feel it in my heart" twaddle, my reaction was, "You atheists are supposed to be more rational than we Christians are, but if you're not, I might as well remain a Christian."

2. When an atheist said, "There are contradictions in the Bible" and left it at that, I figured, by the fact that he chose to tell rather than show, that he was bluffing. Similarly, when another atheist went on and on about pi=3, I thought, "If that's the best you can do, pack it in now."

3. When an atheist actually took the trouble to point out mutually exclusive teachings in the Bible instead of just assserting that there are some, I saw the light.

SLD · 06-04-2003, 09:29 PM

Some interesting replies here. I was converted from "liberal" Christianity, but it also came a lot later in my life, and it was ultimately from an encounter with a fundamentalist who ultimately convinced me the Bible was either the word of God or it was Bunk. She was convinced that if I studied it I would come to the conclusion it was the word of God.

However, once I did start to study it, I think it was easier for me to convert. I was already predisposed to rationalism - having a good liberal arts background with an emphasis in science. I wasn't really as emotionally wedded to it as I thought I was - I was just going through the motions and hoping to pick up some good looking chicks.

I think the key is getting a person to have a rationalist world view. I've seen other discussion boards where a fundy has said that it doesn't matter what the evidence was - she believed that Jesus was her savior and rose from the dead. Kind of like that old bumper sticker: God said it, I believe it, and that settles it. There's no sense in arguing with that. You've got to get them at a more basic level to see the world in a different way.

SLD

Hedwig · 06-04-2003, 10:31 PM

One night my friend Erin and I were out trolling for college boys and we ran into a guy I knew in high school. Erin is a pretty outspoken agnostic and I was already heading down the road to atheism at the time so we both already viewed religion as B.S. The guy that we ran into decided to trail along after us. Poor thing was a twenty years old and his only social life was through his church. Erin and I mentioned "our boys"...meaning all our gay guy friends (we were the only two females in that particular group of friends) and the guy from my old high school was completely floored...mumbling something about how his church didn't approve of that kind of thing. It shocked him even further when we just looked at him and said "Fuck 'em! We don't care!" He followed us around for about another hour because, well...that's all he had to do. He was one of those people that went to this church because it was the most popular in town. Very much one of the social centers of the high school community. He was genuinely shocked to hear two people not only not give a damn about being "in" with that church (which was quite fundie), but they openly called religion B.S. He got really quiet following us around.

Flash forward about a year later and I run into him at a CD store. He was poking around in the science section, which is the area I always go to first. He told me that he'd stopped going to church, stopped referring to himself as a Christian, and thought the whole thing was pretty ridiculous upon looking back. Apparently Erin and I had really gotten him thinking about this beliefs and why he held onto them. He's gotten into some new interests now...roleplaying and such, I believe...and he seems a lot more confident and strong in himself (really was kinda quiet and shy before.) That's the only de-conversion I've ever actually seen other than my own. I was really glad I could help him out...cause him to step back and think about his beliefs for a moment (we mentioned the many inconsistencies in the Bible to him as well)...even though that was honestly not my intention.

seebs · 06-05-2003, 01:06 AM

I have seen a number of fundies convert to athesm, to other religions, or to more liberal or moderate varieties of Christianity. I spend a lot of time trying to guide them into liberal Christianity, which I think is a win for everyone.

SecularFuture · 06-05-2003, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs
I have seen a number of fundies convert to athesm, to other religions, or to more liberal or moderate varieties of Christianity. I spend a lot of time trying to guide them into liberal Christianity, which I think is a win for everyone.

I guess Fundies would have to take baby steps.

1) From Fundy to Conservative Christian
2) From Conservative Christian to Liberal Christian
3) From Liberal Christian to Freethinker
4) From Freethinker to Agnostic
5) From Agnostic to Soft Atheist
6) From Soft Atheist to Hard Atheist
7) From Hard Atheist to Secular Humanist
8) (optional) From Secular Humanist to Secular Transhumanist

Damn.... Theres a lot of work here.
And A LOT of debating.

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06-04-2003, 01:12 PM	#13
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by SecularFuture How did you convert? What were the steps that you took? When I was a fundamentalist, I always worried about my Muslim friends (I grew up in the Middle East). Weren't they going to hell? How could I save them? And what about good, decent, intelligent people like Mahatma Gandhi and Isaac Asimov? How could God send them to hell too? Then I went to the States and entered college, and I started feeling less enthusiastic about Christianity. To me, it was a religion of guilt, self-loathing and contradictions; I couldn't even have a sexual fantasy without either worrying that God wouldn't like it or worrying because I wasn't worrying about God's approval. In the end, I went to see a therapist and told him that I was afraid I wasn't a good Christian any more. He told me "there are many ways to the top of the mountain but the view is the same". That didn't help. This was the University of Georgia, and the Bible-thumpers used to come to the Tate Center plaza to scream at any woman wearing pants. One day I saw a student firing back at them, saying the bible contained all kinds of contradictions, and he read some out from a sheaf of paper. I asked him if I could take a look at his printouts, and I wrote down the website at the top of the page - this website. I read all of Don Morgan's lists and several other articles, and then did a quick search of the UGA library. It was news to me that there were other people who managed to do fine without religion; I had often felt abnormal and alone up till then. I found precisely one book in the library, but it was Madalyn Murray O'Hair's All the questions you ever wanted to ask American Atheists, with all the answers, and she was so blunt and forceful that the last rusty links of my brain-chains crumbled to bits. From that moment on, I decided that I would never be ashamed to call myself an atheist and stand up for the freedom to live without religion. <credits roll>

06-04-2003, 02:16 PM	#15
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	QueenofSwords Excellent story! Its kind of sad that you had to go through all of that though. So the moral of this story is...... Fundy-ism can be destroyed by common sense?

06-04-2003, 02:20 PM	#16
Aravnah Ornan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Alexandria, VA, Faith-Based States of Jesusland Posts: 1,794	I agree with what's been said about converting a fundy vs. converting a religious liberal. If a fundy takes an all-or-nothing approach to the scriptures of her faith, and if you make a convincing case that she cannot accept the "all," that leaves her with the "nothing." That's assuming, of course, that the fundy in question hasn't completely renounced logic. On the other hand, arguing scripture with a religious liberal is like nailing oatmeal to a wall; he'll just say that the parts of the scripture that you're pointing out to him are not part of the nebulous "essence" of the scriptures that he accepts. For example, when a religious liberal started talking to me the other day about the Ten Commandments, I pointed out to him that the Bible has multiple, widely varying versions of said Commandments. That was news to him, and what's more, he didn't seem to think it mattered at all as long as he felt a certain way in his heart. That being said, let me tell you what didn't deconvert me and then tell you what did. 1. When an atheist yammered on about some sort of emotion-driven, "I feel it in my heart" twaddle, my reaction was, "You atheists are supposed to be more rational than we Christians are, but if you're not, I might as well remain a Christian." 2. When an atheist said, "There are contradictions in the Bible" and left it at that, I figured, by the fact that he chose to tell rather than show, that he was bluffing. Similarly, when another atheist went on and on about pi=3, I thought, "If that's the best you can do, pack it in now." 3. When an atheist actually took the trouble to point out mutually exclusive teachings in the Bible instead of just assserting that there are some, I saw the light.

06-04-2003, 09:29 PM	#17
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	Some interesting replies here. I was converted from "liberal" Christianity, but it also came a lot later in my life, and it was ultimately from an encounter with a fundamentalist who ultimately convinced me the Bible was either the word of God or it was Bunk. She was convinced that if I studied it I would come to the conclusion it was the word of God. However, once I did start to study it, I think it was easier for me to convert. I was already predisposed to rationalism - having a good liberal arts background with an emphasis in science. I wasn't really as emotionally wedded to it as I thought I was - I was just going through the motions and hoping to pick up some good looking chicks. I think the key is getting a person to have a rationalist world view. I've seen other discussion boards where a fundy has said that it doesn't matter what the evidence was - she believed that Jesus was her savior and rose from the dead. Kind of like that old bumper sticker: God said it, I believe it, and that settles it. There's no sense in arguing with that. You've got to get them at a more basic level to see the world in a different way. SLD

06-04-2003, 10:31 PM	#18
Hedwig Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 3,921	One night my friend Erin and I were out trolling for college boys and we ran into a guy I knew in high school. Erin is a pretty outspoken agnostic and I was already heading down the road to atheism at the time so we both already viewed religion as B.S. The guy that we ran into decided to trail along after us. Poor thing was a twenty years old and his only social life was through his church. Erin and I mentioned "our boys"...meaning all our gay guy friends (we were the only two females in that particular group of friends) and the guy from my old high school was completely floored...mumbling something about how his church didn't approve of that kind of thing. It shocked him even further when we just looked at him and said "Fuck 'em! We don't care!" He followed us around for about another hour because, well...that's all he had to do. He was one of those people that went to this church because it was the most popular in town. Very much one of the social centers of the high school community. He was genuinely shocked to hear two people not only not give a damn about being "in" with that church (which was quite fundie), but they openly called religion B.S. He got really quiet following us around. Flash forward about a year later and I run into him at a CD store. He was poking around in the science section, which is the area I always go to first. He told me that he'd stopped going to church, stopped referring to himself as a Christian, and thought the whole thing was pretty ridiculous upon looking back. Apparently Erin and I had really gotten him thinking about this beliefs and why he held onto them. He's gotten into some new interests now...roleplaying and such, I believe...and he seems a lot more confident and strong in himself (really was kinda quiet and shy before.) That's the only de-conversion I've ever actually seen other than my own. I was really glad I could help him out...cause him to step back and think about his beliefs for a moment (we mentioned the many inconsistencies in the Bible to him as well)...even though that was honestly not my intention.

06-05-2003, 01:06 AM	#19
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I have seen a number of fundies convert to athesm, to other religions, or to more liberal or moderate varieties of Christianity. I spend a lot of time trying to guide them into liberal Christianity, which I think is a win for everyone.

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