Freethought & Rationalism Archive

10-13-2002, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baidarka:
Leonarde
Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Baidarka, that is very easy.

The law was given to Moses for the conviction of sin that leads to salvation (Gal.2:17) and in the end freedom from the law as a result of salvation is gained (Gal.5:1.). Therefore, "he who is in Christ cannot sin" (1Jn.3:9). So, to fulfill the law is to meet the purpose Moses had in mind and religions propagate.

Heaven and earth disappear because our comprehension of heaven and earth is that they are opposite and these opposites must be consolidated in the mind through understanding. Heaven and earth become one in the end through the convergeance of our twain mind.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

10-13-2002, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:

Alright, then.

If Biblical contradictions with human knowledge from history and science, are too obvious, then Biblical contradictions within the Bible, are detectable too:

1. for example, is 'God' good to all, or good to a few?

Psalm 145:9 reads
"The Lord is good to all."

Jeremiah 13:14 reads
"..."And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together" says the Lord. "I will not pitty nor spare nor have mercy, but will destry them."..."

Psalm 145:9 and Jeremiah 13:14 are in direct contradiction, no matter the context, mistranslation or other excuses.

2. for example, is 'God' of war or of peace?

Exodus 15:3 reads
"The Lord is a man of war."

Romans 15:33 reads
"Now the God of peace be with you all."

Exodus 15:3 "...of war.", and Romans 15:33 "...of peace...", are in direct contradiction, no matter the context, mistranslation or other excuses.

There are other such absurdities.

Semantics are important. You are mixing God with Lord God and in many repect these two are opposites -- as you pointed out.

Ion · 10-13-2002, 07:13 PM

Amos,
'Lord' and 'God' are the same in the Bible.

'Lord' and 'Lord God' that's for a contortionist like you, trying to excuse the Bible.

Anyway, Psalm 145:9 and Jeremiah 13:14, speak contradictorily about the same 'Lord'.
So there is no 'Lord God' garbage in either Psalm 145:9 nor Jeremiah 13:14, but 'Lord'.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

10-13-2002, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:
Amos,
'Lord' and 'God' are the same in the Bible.

'Lord' and 'Lord God' that's for a contortionist like you, trying to excuse the Bible.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

Lord and Lord God are the same but they are not the same as God. God is the creator of Gen.1 while Lord God formed that which God created in Gen.2.

God is love and Lord God is life to make Lord God the truth of beauty and God the beauty of truth.

Ion · 10-13-2002, 07:28 PM

I don't know about this:

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:


Lord and Lord God are the same but they are not the same as God. God is the creator of Gen.1 while Lord God formed that which God created in Gen.2.

God is love and Lord God is life to make Lord God the truth of beauty and God the beauty of truth.

But I know about this Biblical contradiction, regarding 'Lord':

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:
Amos,
...
Anyway, Psalm 145:9 and Jeremiah 13:14, speak contradictorily about one 'Lord'.
[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

So there is no 'Lord God', 'God', 'Lord' garbage in either Psalm 145:9 nor Jeremiah 13:14, but there is one single 'Lord', contradictorily defined.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

Ion · 10-13-2002, 07:33 PM

Amos, these are the Biblical contradictions regarding one 'Lord'.

Forget 'God' and 'Lord God' garbage, and concentrate on 'Lord' below:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:

Alright, then.

If Biblical contradictions with human knowledge from history and science, are too obvious, then Biblical contradictions within the Bible, are detectable too:

1. for example, is 'God' good to all, or good to a few?

Psalm 145:9 reads
"The Lord is good to all."

Jeremiah 13:14 reads
"..."And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together" says the Lord. "I will not pitty nor spare nor have mercy, but will destry them."..."
...
There are other such absurdities.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

Ion · 10-13-2002, 07:40 PM

Now, I bet Amos is going to tell me that there is 'Lord' Senior in Psalm, and 'Lord' Junior in Jeremiah, so there shouldn't be a contradiction:

'Lord' Senior is good to all, and 'Lord' Junior is good to a few.

'Lord' Senior must have been created in Gen.2, and 'Lord' Junior must have been created in Gen.3, whatever these are, i.e.: apologists haven't concocted this yet, stay tuned.

Of course...

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

10-13-2002, 08:26 PM

Well I am not sure and I am not interesting in solving your contradiction. I would guess that the battle described in Jeremiah (I never read it) takes place in his own mind and he wants your reaction as a believer/doubter.

I am not an apologist because I am not a defender of the bible. My point is that before we criticize it lets make sure we know what we are talking about.

Despite the above I still hold that the bible is inerrant.

Radorth · 10-13-2002, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Exodus 15:3 reads
"The Lord is a man of war."

Romans 15:33 reads
"Now the God of peace be with you all."

Of course the first quote is removed from a specific context, as usual.

One would think sceptics would note when God does something to prevent slavery and injustice, but they never do for some reason. They only seem to note when he encourages it.

So lemme see if I can grasp the point. If there was a plane about to hit a building with 20,000 people in it, a Christian F-16 pilot should do what exactly?

Radorth

Jack the Bodiless · 10-14-2002, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
The way you phrase this line of inquiry leaves quite a bit of latitude. What is meant by "so different as to be irreconcilable"? Any supposed contradiction must go a great length to demonstrate a "black-and-white" contrast. At minimum, there must be sufficient negative overlap. There must be substantial negation in order to justify the charge of errancy or contradiction. Also, it would seems much more difficult to label passages "contradictory" if they are very short in length.

Then I will present what I consider the most pervasive of the Biblical contradictions: the punishment of innocents for the crimes of others.

There is a LOT of this in the Bible: a very substantial "negative overlap" with the verses (and the common belief of many Christians) that this is wrong.

From the <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com" target="_blank">Skeptic's Annotated Bible,</a> some verses AGAINST:

Quote:

Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Jeremiah 31:29-30 "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity."

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

...and some verses FOR:

Quote:

Gen.9:21-25 "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father .... And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham's son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Ex.20:5 , Dt.5:9 "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Ex.34:7 "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Num.14:18 "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Dt.28:18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body."

2 Sam.12:14 "The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

2 Sam.21:6-9 "Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD .... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD."

1 Kg.2:33 "Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever."

1 Kg.21:29 "Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because hehumbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house."

2 Kg.5:27 "The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever."

Is.14:21 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

Jer.16:10-11 "Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? ... Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord."

Jer.32:18 "Thou ... recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them."

Note that there are many more verses FOR than AGAINST. Also, there is much more that could be added to the FOR side: the massacre of the Egyptian firstborn, the genocide of innocent children in the Flood and in many divinely-ordered massacres, and so on. Christianity is a religion which begins with the punishment of all humanity for the crimes of Adam and Eve, and culminates in the torture and death of Jesus for the crimes of everyone else.

Therefore, a "true Christian" can remain most consistent with the Bible by refusing to accept that the punishment of innocents for the crimes of others is wrong. But this contradicts the verses in the AGAINST section, and the Christian doctrine that God is "just": the concept of justice requires matching rewards and punishments to what individuals "deserve". This appears to be profoundly "un-Christian" (and the contradiction between "an eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek" is a part of this problem also).

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Jack the Bodiless ]

10-13-2002, 07:13 PM	#43
Ion Banned Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,817	Amos, 'Lord' and 'God' are the same in the Bible. 'Lord' and 'Lord God' that's for a contortionist like you, trying to excuse the Bible. Anyway, Psalm 145:9 and Jeremiah 13:14, speak contradictorily about the same 'Lord'. So there is no 'Lord God' garbage in either Psalm 145:9 nor Jeremiah 13:14, but 'Lord'. [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ] [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]</p>

10-13-2002, 07:40 PM	#47
Ion Banned Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,817	Now, I bet Amos is going to tell me that there is 'Lord' Senior in Psalm, and 'Lord' Junior in Jeremiah, so there shouldn't be a contradiction: 'Lord' Senior is good to all, and 'Lord' Junior is good to a few. 'Lord' Senior must have been created in Gen.2, and 'Lord' Junior must have been created in Gen.3, whatever these are, i.e.: apologists haven't concocted this yet, stay tuned. Of course... [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]</p>

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10-13-2002, 08:26 PM	#48
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Well I am not sure and I am not interesting in solving your contradiction. I would guess that the battle described in Jeremiah (I never read it) takes place in his own mind and he wants your reaction as a believer/doubter. I am not an apologist because I am not a defender of the bible. My point is that before we criticize it lets make sure we know what we are talking about. Despite the above I still hold that the bible is inerrant.

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