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Reload this Page Huge flaw in the bible
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Old 05-17-2003, 02:09 PM   #11
JCS
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You are in debt with a creditor. (Jesus for dying on the cross)
Well since I didn't ask him to do anything of the sort, I owe him nothing.
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You have the free will to make payment or not (follow his example or not)
So if I have myself nailed to a cross I won't owe him for services or product that I didn't request in the first place? Is this some sort of pyramid scheme?
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If you do follow, your debt will be paid in full (Rest in Heaven)
ROTFLMAO!!! So let me understand this, some guy got himself nailed to a cross and for that I should return the favor so that I might enjoy a one-way ticket to some unsubstantiated place where I'll spend eternity thanking him for his services.

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Free will is defined by God, not Humans. What you may "think" of as free will is not the same as that of God the Almighty Creator of the Universe.
No humans define freewill and just attribute those definitions to their unsubstantiated claim.

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We owe a debt to God for allowing us to live in what he created. Pay your respects, or face the music.
Says who? If this god character wants payment, then perhaps he could provide some proof that he has in fact preformed a service or provided a product. What you're describing is a protection racket. Any further attempts to collect this unsubstantiated debt will be referred to my attorney.
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Old 05-17-2003, 03:30 PM   #12
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Are most of you assuming that predestination is accepted and recognized by all christian denominations? should not the OP be more specific and say " Calvinists" rather than christians?

Because if a christian happens to not be a Calvinist, he will not even bother entering the ball room to " dance".
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Old 05-17-2003, 04:13 PM   #13
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Agree with Sabine.

Have met very few Christians who believe in predestination.

Think it is a non-issue.
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Old 05-17-2003, 04:25 PM   #14
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Have met very few Christians who believe in predestination.
I think that is the point isn't it. What they believe and what they say seem to be at odds. A omniscient deity that knows everything before it happens because he created it, does not mean predestination but free will. Yup, I don't think I would dance either.
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Old 05-17-2003, 04:40 PM   #15
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Originally posted by Tarnaak
Here is an analogy for you all to show what free will is and how it works.
Post New Testament
You are in debt with a creditor. (Jesus for dying on the cross)
<snip>
Analogy schmanalogy.

I don't believe that I am in debt to Jesus Christ. Therefore anything that follows is invalid in my opinion.


Duck!
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Old 05-17-2003, 04:46 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Tarnaak
Here is an analogy for you all to show what free will is and how it works.
Post New Testament
You are in debt with a creditor. (Jesus for dying on the cross)
You have the free will to make payment or not (follow his example or not)
If you do follow, your debt will be paid in full (Rest in Heaven)
If you don't follow, your debt will always be in revolving account status. (No rest in a burning lake of fire)
What if I make the free will decision to disbelieve this analogy?

Does the conclusion therefore follow?

If I make the decision to disbelieve in Christianity, is it my decision to burn in hell? I have never decided to burn in a lake of fire, free will or no.


Duck!
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Old 05-17-2003, 05:21 PM   #17
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Can I freely choose to enter this heaven place while concurrently using my free will of not believing in jebus or YABA?
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Old 05-17-2003, 05:44 PM   #18
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Originally posted by JCS
I think that is the point isn't it. What they believe and what they say seem to be at odds. A omniscient deity that knows everything before it happens because he created it, does not mean predestination but free will. Yup, I don't think I would dance either.
Again.... and for the last time... the dancers may be the christians who support and believe in predestination. Or are you expecting christians who do not believe in predestination to defend it to you ? I hope you realize that it may be an unreasonable demand.

It is also IMO rather simplistic to have presented that OP as if " christians" all believe in predestination. Which is not the reality.
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Old 05-17-2003, 05:53 PM   #19
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Sabine,

Does this mean that you believe that god does not know what will happen in the future?

Steve
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Old 05-17-2003, 08:30 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Again.... and for the last time... the dancers may be the christians who support and believe in predestination. Or are you expecting christians who do not believe in predestination to defend it to you ? I hope you realize that it may be an unreasonable demand.

It is also IMO rather simplistic to have presented that OP as if " christians" all believe in predestination. Which is not the reality.
But the christians who don't believe in predestination don't even believe in their own bible then, because in the bible it states many times god planned our lives before we were even born, so Calvanists are actually the more correct "christian"
Jake
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