Amie

Hi happyboy
When i look at my own belief system its not so much that I want to ignore some scripture but the God I believe in is loving. It is difficult for me to imagine a loving forgiving God sending "his children" to a place to burn for all eternity simply for using the freewill he gave us. I guess I just have so many questions about my own faith that will not be answered anytime soon and I am ok with that, it can be frustrating though. I do not really think that atheism conflicts with my views because ultimately I don't feel God judges us on what we believe but more perhaps how we live our lives. I agree that there are far too many narrow minded viewpoints in regards to Christianity itself. I just feel that my God belief in my life is harmless. I do the things that I feel are right, I try to be a good person, I make mistakes and I learn from them and I acknowledge that ultimately I am the one who has to live with myself. I do not like that whole "unequally yolked" talk in the bible about marrying a non believer, I am in love with one and I feel that I need to follow my heart, he makes me happy but if God has a problem with it, he can take it up with me. he knows where to find me.

I am familiar with the bible and while I do feel it was largely divinely inspired I also know that only those people who wrote it "know" what was inspired and what was not. I am honest when i say i can not find any continuity between a loving, forgiving God and the God portrayed in *some* passages. It can cause much confusion. I just feel religion itself is not a bad thing, it is how that religion is manifested in ones life which may become potentially dangerous. For example I feel that if ones beliefs cause them to harm others in any way, then they really should abandon those beliefs or if ones belief causes one to think of themselves superior in any way to others who do not share that belief then I see that as a negative thing. I do not feel that Christianity is any sort of truth in life but I do feel it is a way for some that may not be right for others. My "right" will be your wrong and your right will be my wrong but ultimately each of our beliefs only has to be right for one of us.

Amos

Here's one, and you argue from the speaker back to yourself. Just because you are not able to have intimations with the divine that does not mean that others can't. I cannot blame you for not believing in religion because God only knows what you know about religion nor can I blame you for how life has been treating you (notice the duality "how life has been treating you"?).

So happyboy, if this eats your heart out you only have yourself to blame because your life was given to you for you to come to an understanding of it.

Starboy

Amos, reword the "was given to you" to "is your chance" and it becomes wisdom for everyone. :notworthy

Starboy

Amos

No objection because either way you'll end up with knowing who you are and have peace of mind.

happyboy

actually, amos, i understand the purpose in my life, and it's a purpose i gave to my life, not some imaginary God: to be happy. that's my ultimate drive, my ultimate ambition.

you want to know something funny, amos? before i became a non-believer, i was catholic. i find it amusing and sad at the same time that you preach (apparently, at any rate; deciphering your gibberish is hard work) that catholicism brings true happiness; if that's so, amos, why was i miserable as a catholic? why did only non-belief bring me peace of mind?

happyboy

Amos

You should understand that your present happiness is the result of your obligation to the church that molded and shaped your outlook on life towards a certain goal which was often against your own will but served you for your own good and protected you from the many snares that prevail in secular life. It took some courage to leave the fold and you are now on your own to sort things out for yourself. If nothing else your attendance was needed to provide the stream of consciousness held by the masses against which salvation must be found and from this perspective you were needed to pave the way for others. In other words, you were just one sheep of the flock that is needed to make the "lost sheep" known. Thank you very much and you are now on your own.

To be frank, I don't think anybody cared that you left and nobody tried to win you back because the church knows that faith requires understanding and often this works best when outside the fold. To put this another way, the church is not trying to herd the entire flock into heaven but each person must find happiness on his or her own and this can be done with more objectivity from the outside. That is what you did and that was your way.

There were other benefits for you but I would like to point out that your leaving the fold itself did you no harm, nor did your faith leave you stranded and in need for counseling or 'leaving the fold therapy' because the church did not violate your soul but in fact reinforced you intergity instead.

Shake

So what's wrong with something like secular humanism? Working for the benefits of all mankind ... eliminating injustice and prejudice in the world. Are these not noble causes that we could turn our attention and energy onto?

Happyboy, interestingly, that's a similar line of thinking that got me out of religion: the whole "salad bar" hypocrisy. An initial rebellion against the insanity of "organized" religion (an oxymoron, IMHO), turned into further questioning and a rejection of any sky fairy, to use your phrase. Trying to follow Amos' twisted fundy "logic" (and I use the term very loosely, hence the quotes) will just give you headaches. So be wary of it. Read it, but know where Amos is coming from, so you can put it into perspective.

capnkirk

Indeed they are!!! ...and you are ever so close to grasping my point, which is: When the primary feature of our presentation (to theists in general and xtians in particular) of athiesm is REFUTATION by confrontation, we lose the argument insofar as we have convinced no one, further confirm the prejudices of those whom we would enlighten that we are barbarians at their gate, and allow them by defending themselves from that threat to strengthen their faith. This approach is thoroughly counterproductive. (Ergo: when encountering the theist who INSISTS on confrontation, one must be resigned to the fact that this person is not a viable candidate for growth, and move on.)

When we find a seeker with whom we can focus on our similarities, the things we have in common...like morality (our difference lies in the perceived authority for that morality), compassion, recognition that there IS both good and evil, we present our complete selves and do so in a positive manner. Some will listen, some will even be moved toward our understanding (which is the goal, isn't it?).

Theism will never be wiped out; the best we can hope to do is to eventually relegate it to the fringe of society.

You obviously remember when YOU were at this point in your personal evolution. Why then would you ridicule those who are just now reaching that station? Rather, why not use those memories to identify with that person. Share the intellectual process by which you left that mindset behind (in the context of YOUR agony, your conflicts, your search, your solutions). Find out what HIS doubts are, and offer insight. Lead him one step at a time, don't drive him!

Amos

There is nothing wrong with secular humanism except that you do not get any rewards and becomes a waste of energy unless you do it out of guilt in which case you add feul to the fire by admitting this guilt!

Amos is no fundy and I think you have the quotation marks on the wrong word.

rdalin

Rewards? Is that why you're a Catholic - to collect spiritual green stamps? I'm a secular humanist because I think that it makes sense; there are no rewards other than, maybe, satisfaction.

The quoted word is right on.