Gundulf

I'm just speculating here - but I have this feeling that you would object just as strenuously if the Christian position were "Only those who showed themselves worthy and good enough (by God's standard) would go to heaven"?

You're objecting to the idea that salvation is based on grace and the desire for forgiveness, and not a person actually being good enough - I'm just guessing that you'd probably object if it were based on being good enough?

Lógos Sokratikós

On one side we have humans' way.

On the other side God's way...
Or should I say a way that is stated in *this* shiny holy book of choice (Quran, Torah, Bible, Gita, Popol-Vuh, etc) which *humans* SAY is the way of God. Oh yeah, that's so NOT the way of humans, because deceiving people with something written by them is SO not the human way!

This is fun!

Gandhi the Hun

I am not objecting on "salvation based on grace and desire for forgivness", I am objecting "salvation" based on believing in and worshipping someone or something. Your speculation is false, but I completely understand why you would make it. If salvation were based on "being good enough", I would probably question the presence of a definable standard of what is good enough. In some ways it seems more morally correct (if morals do in fact exist), but being sin free is not easy, in fact, I am sinning right now

Gandhi the Hun

[/QUOTE]

Who specifically are these Jews if they are not people of the jewish religion, and what people are they freeing from what rulers? It is all so vague and unclear to me!

Elijah

I explained the difference for me between Jewish and Jew at the top of the page. Post #26

Free all people. We are all still working for the man, just building different kinds of pyramids these days. Over here in the "Land of the Free" the vast majority of people are working their lives away with hardly anything to show for it so that the lucky minority can preserve the status quo of the majority of us doing all the work while the ruling class reaps all the benefits.

Slave life is much better then it was but we still have to do all their work so the complaint is still the same as when Mosses went at Pharaoh. "Let my people go." Problem is most people live in the denial that they are somehow free or just buy into the gotta be a good productive slave so they can work their way up and maybe get some slaves of their own and take it easy for a while.

The system of oppression may look nicer and friendlier but it's still the same system.

TomboyMom

See, I told you it would be a definition that no one else uses. By the way, the word, "mother" actually means a woman who enjoys French food, and the word "child" means reptile. So this trait is passed from gourmets to snakes. Are you following me? No? I tried to warn you.

Gandhi the Hun

Thank you for clarifying what you meant Elijah, and to an extent I agree with what you are saying, besides your definition of "jew", but I understand where you're coming from.

RAWFULL COPTER! LOLLER SKATES! 8]

Gandhi the Hun

I asked my superChristian brother (much smarter than my sister) and he said that God in all his goodness is obligated to allow free will of all living things (which I can agree with as a major priority of something infinetely good). Doing good, in my opinion, loses its meaning and moral value when one is forced to do was is normally considered good. Its like in that book, A Clockwork Orange. But back on topic, my brother said God has to allow free will, and that it is not God who is to blaim for evil in the world, but the people who are evil committing the acts of evil. Well that is what my brother told me, what do joo, teh people think? I think there is some sense to this argument, unless your thinking is that since the omnipotent God is watching evil happen without taking any action, he is equally guilty of the evil.

storytime

According to the OT bible story, the Jews brought the Halocaust on themselves. The Hebrew god is seen both good and evil. God produced evil and claimed responsibility for it. God told the Jews he would kill them and their children for disobeying him. Among all this maddening enviroment there were some Jews who decided they had had enough of this Hebrew God, and so they left him behind and went to worship the Queen of Heaven. Here they baked cakes to her and she increased their health, long life, and prosperity. Then Ezekiel the prophet tried to make them return to their original God but they refused. Some asked "why should we die when we can live and be prosperous via the Queen of Heaven." So they continued to bake cakes for the Queen of Heaven and worship her, and Ezekiel the prophet went on his way to preach hell and damnation to other Jews who would listen.

Who gets into heaven? No one gets into heaven. "Heaven" is within you, according to Jesus teaching. According to the Christian Right, "heaven" is in outer space somewhere and only those people who worship Jesus will get to go there. In the blink of an eye Jesus will at some time zap all those who believe in him straight up to heaven. Everyone else will be left behind.

You might want to make arrangements to take over Christian property as they won't be needing earthly material goods anymore. Do you have Christian neighbors? :devil1:

joedad

This kool aid is delicious!