Ted Hoffman

You have read the book but just cant remember what the plausible reasons were - right?

Radcliffe Emerson

See my last reply in "Apparently I'm being Irrational".
I list some of the reasons from Crossan's book there on the Roman execution of Jesus.

godfry n. glad

King Arthur did state:

Sorry, Art, you don't remember right. The term "christos" (christ) is used exactly twice in the entirety of Josephus' works, once in the much disputed "Testimonium Flavium" and once in the passing reference to James, the victim of Ananus' judicial murder and reputed to be the brother of Jesus, "called the Christ".

There are those, Horsley is one known to me, that suggest that Josephus uses disparaging language to describe those "bandits and brigands" who were thought to be messianic pretenders. However, Josephus never, other than the two cited examples, refers to Christ, the messiah, or the messianic hope in a direct fashion in referring to these men. Indeed, it is also suggested that Josephus named Vespasian, in JW (5.4.3) as the subject of the Jewish oracle which predicted that the "governor of the known world" (in other words, the messiah) would come from Judea.

Art, again:

My...That's some piece of speculation. Since you're so demanding of others on these lines, I assume that you can produce evidence of this?

And again, Art asserts:

.

Umhmmm....And that blip was smaller than that of Jesus, son of Ananus, as described in some detail in JW 5.4.2? Jesus the magical healer, with thousands (or even hundreds) that reputedly met him at the gates of Jerusalem, shouting hosannas, rated less than the scouraged madman who (correctly, I might note) presaged the destruction of Jerusalem.

Yeah...right.

godfry n. glad

Tristan Scott

What other writers wrote contemporary history about 1st c. Palestine?

I'm not sure we should, but there at least is some logic in the redaction in the Testamonium (18). Why wouold a later Christian want to interpolate the James , brother of Jesus bit? That Jesus had an actual brother was problematic for the status quo of the early church fathers. If anything they would have probably have wanted to remove the part altogether.

godfry n. glad

Tristan Scott did state:

You're assuming that the modern orthodox dogma on the divinity of Jesus goes back to the inception of the teachings. From my understanding, that has been discarded by most scholars in favor of a multiplicity of contending belief systems about the founder figure during the early decades.

As to why a later Christian might want to interpolate something into Josephus we can only speculate....First, Josephus was a well-known historian of the period that covered the period that Jesus was reputed to have been active. He was also known, from his own writings, to have been not only a Pharisaical Jew, but the son of a Temple preist (and probable member of the Sandhedrin that reputedly condemned the Christian founder figure to death), and a client of the Flavian household, pretty good credentials to provide a witness to the existence of Jesus. Second, the second and third centuries were replete with contention between docetic and non-docetic Christians, in which evidence of Jesus' corporeal existence, in the form of a mention in the works of a well-known historian of the period, would have been a valuable weapon for the non-docetic (and eventually orthodox) Christians in extirpating the docetic "heresy". That'd be reason enough.

Then, I'm not sure that we need speculate that it was a Christian interpolator. I could understand a pagan gentile scribe, familiar with the increasing controversy over Jesus and given the responsibility of transcribing a new copy of Josephus' _Antiquities_, placing a marginal note alongside the text in Book XX regarding James to the effect of "is this the one called Christ?" Such a marginal note would later have been taken, particularly by a Christian scribe, to have been a clarification that indicated that this was the Jesus of Christian legend. It is possible that it was all "innocent" and that no dogmatic purpose was intended, but once recognized for its polemic purpose, it became part and parcel of the Christian apologetics.

Note that Origen, in the third century, refers to the James reference, but does not mention the Testimonium Flavium at all. In fact, he states that Josephus does not recognize Jesus as the Christ. The evidence seems to indicate that the James cite antedates the interpolation of the TF. Perhaps a passing mention in reference to James was not enough for later Christians and it was felt that something "meatier" was required and the TF was born.

Note also that the passing mention in Book XX could have occurred through excision and replacement or just by insertion of a clause in the existing text. From what I understand, if it was early, that is, close chronologically to the time of Josephus, it was more likely to have been on scrolls and any sizeable insertion would have made it difficult to keep the "Book" to the scroll. Thus the early and abbreviated mention. But, by the time Origen is writing, codices seem to have replaced scrolls as the prevalent information storage system and inserting a sizeable chunk of text, like the TF, would not have been as major an issue as it would have two hundred years earlier.

godfry n. glad

Ted Hoffman

Tristan Scott
What other writers wrote contemporary history about 1st c. Palestine?
Doesnt have to be contemporary history. Anything about Jesus would have been hot-cake and every writer would have jotted at least an opinion regarding Jesus.

This incomplete list is from John E. Remsburg's The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence

• ·
• 20 BCE
  Philo Judaeus - spent time in Jerusalem during the times of Jesus, he wrote many books about the Jews and their religion and history - but not a word about Jesus or his followers or his teachings.
  ·
• C.E. 4-97
  Apollonius of Tyana - was a philosopher and mystic contemporary with Jesus (and rather similar to him) who travelled widely and was revered even by Roman Emperors- his words and teachings were recorded by his disciple Damis (our information comes from Philostratus c.220) - from what we know he apparently had no knowledge of Jesus, his teachings, or his followers.
  Justus of Tiberias was a writer contemporary with Jesus, and from the same region - his works are now lost, but Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople wrote in the 8th Century: ''He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did." [Tiberias is a town near Galilee, Tiberius is a Roman name]
  ·
• 0-29 C.E.
  Marcus Manilius - wrote on astrology/astronomy in Rome.
  Velleius Paterculus - wrote Roman History.
  ·
• 30-39 C.E.
  Quintus Curtius Rufus wrote in Rome (History of Alexander)
  Marcus/Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote several works on oratory and literary criticisms in Rome.
  C. Musonius Rufus wrote on Stoic philosophy in Rome. C. Musonius Rufus was a Roman eques and Stoic philosopher, born about 30 C.E. Many leading Roman citizens studied philosophy with him, and he also taught the ex-slave philosopher Epictetus.
  ·
• 40-49 C.E.
  Pomponius Mela - was a roman geographer. His work, De situ orbis, a description of the then known world, was published in Latin in 1471 and translated into English by Arthur Golding as The Cosmographer (1585).
  ·
• 50-69 C.E.
  Lucius Annaeus Seneca - wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome.
  Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome.
  Aulus Persius Flaccus - wrote several satires in Rome.
  Petronius Arbiter - wrote the Satyricon in Rome.
  Hero(n) of Alexandria - wrote many technical works, including astronomy.
  Geminus - wrote on astronomy in Greece.
  Lucius Junius Moderatus Columella - wrote (about agriculture) in Spain sometime in the 1st century.
  Cleomedes - wrote on mathematics in Greece.
  Dioscorides - wrote a pharmacopoeia in mainland Greece.
  
  ·
• 60-100 C.E.
  Plutarch of Chaeronea - wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia.
  Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio) - was the dominant Roman Orator of the times (his worked jointly shows Stoic and Cynic ideas), and wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.
  Pliny the Elder (Gaius Plinius Secundus) - wrote a large Natural History in Rome.
  Marcus Fabius Quintilianus - wrote the Education of an Orator in Rome - his many speeches are lost.
  Publius Papinius Statius - wrote numerous minor and epic poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome.
  Dio of Prusa - wrote in Alexandria.
  Silius Italicus - wrote the Punica in Naples.
  Sextus Julius Frontinus - wrote many technical works in Rome - 2 survive - e.g. on Aquaducts. In Sentences of Sextus, translated by Frederik Wisse , Sextus writes a lot about religious issues including (376a) “A man who is worthy of God, he is God among men, and he is the son of God” but he never mentions Jesus.
  ·
• 80-89 C.E.
  Marcus Valerius Martialus - wrote many satires in Rome.
  ·
• 90-99 C.E.
  Josephus (Flavianus) wrote Jewish Antiquities of the Jews which nowadays contains a famous passage (the Testamonium Flavianum), which is not considered reliable evidence by most scholars. About a century later Origen comments that Josephus did not call Jesus the Christ. There are various versions of the passage, each are unlikely to have been written by Josephus - it was almost certainly inserted centuries later by Eusebius (whose copy of Josephus is the first to show this passage).
  In Antiquities of the Jews 20, another disputed passage has Josephus identifying Jesus as James’ brother (James was the leader of the Jerusalem Church – he is identified as “the brother of the Lord” in Galatians 1:4). Jesus never identified James as his brother and James never identified Jesus as his brother. The Gospel of Thomas has Jesus identifying James as “James the Just”, not as his brother. Other incongruities arise when the passage is examined more closely like Pauls all-inclusive use of the word brother, Origens’ conflicting quote from the same passage etc (not to mention, those espousing the idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity – like the Catholic Church may not like the idea that Jesus actually had a brother).
  ·
• 100-130 C.E.
  Epictetus' The Golden Sayings of Epictetus. speeches on Stoicism (after retiring to Greece) were recorded by Arrian, he refers to the Christians (possibly authentic) in Discourses IV 7: "Through madness it is possible for a man to be so disposed towards these things and through habit, as the Galileans."
  Theon of Smyrna - wrote on astronomy/philosophy. He made astronomical observations of Mercury and Venus between 127 and 132 since Ptolemy listed four observations, which Theon made in 127, 129, 130 and 132. From these observations Theon made estimates of the greatest angular distance that Mercury and Venus can reach from the Sun.
  Decimus Junius Juvenalis - wrote sixteen satires in Rome. In His Satires (c. 100 AD) savagely attack Roman society.
  Nicomachus of Gerasa - wrote on mathematics.
  Lucius Annaeus Florus - wrote an Epitome of Roman History.
  Hierocles - wrote some Stoic works.
  Thallus - perhaps wrote about this time or somewhat earlier (his works are lost, there is no evidence he wrote in the 1st century, in fact there is some evidence he wrote around 109 BCE, and some authors refer to him for events before the Trojan War!) - 9th century George Syncellus quotes the 3rd century Julianus Africanus, speaking of the darkness at the crucifixion: ''Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse". There is no evidence Thallus made specific reference to Jesus or the Gospel events, as there was an eclipse in 29, the subject in question.
  Phlegon - probably wrote during this period - his works are lost. Later, Origen, Eusebius, and Julianus Africanus (as quoted by George Syncellus) refer to him, but quote differently his reference to an eclipse. There is no evidence Phlegon said anything about Gospel events, if he did it is too late to prove anything about Jesus.
  Favorinus, a skeptic, a philosopher and friend of Plutarch, wrote in Gaul.
  
  ·
• 111-4 C.E.
  Pliny the Younger (Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus) - wrote of a movement founded by ''Christus'' considered a God by his followers - this confirms that their were Christians who believed in a Christ by that time - but proves nothing about Jesus.
  ·
• 112-5 C.E.
  Cornelius Tacitus - wrote a celebrated passage about Jesus roughly 80 years or so after the alleged events - but at best he is merely reporting Christian beliefs of his later times, not using earlier documents: he uses the incorrect title 'procurator' - the term used in Tacitus' time, not Pilate's; he fails to name the executed man (Roman records could not possibly have called him 'Christ '); and he accepts the recent advent of the Christians, when Rome was known to allow only ancient cults and religions. No-one refers to this passage in Tacitus for another millenium, and our earliest manuscript dates to c.1100 CE .
  ·
• 112-120 C.E.
  Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus - in Life of Claudius mentioned unrest at the instigation of 'Chrestus'. This is a common Greek name and was also a mystic name for an Initiate (meaning the Good) - this Chrestus seems to have been active in Rome, thus is unlikely to have been Jesus Christ.
  
  ·
• 120-150 C.E.
  Aelius Aristides the Greek Orator spoke and wrote on wrote a History of Rome inter alia - he seems to refer to the Christians as "impious men from Palestine " (Orations 46.2)
  Albinus taught on (neo-)Platonism, a little survives.
  Aristocles of Messene wrote On Philosophy .
  Arrian wrote in Athens (on Alexander inter alia)
  Menelaus of Alexandria wrote on mathematics.
  Ptolemy (Claudius Ptolemaeus) wrote the astronomical masterpiece the Almagest (the Greatest) in Alexandria.
  Sepher Yetzirah (Book of Formation) may date from around this period (perhaps R. Akiba c.120, or later 2nd century).
  150 C.E.
  Marcus Cornelius Fronto - scandalised rites practiced by Roman Christians, fragments are preserved in the Minucius Felix' Octavius.
  
  ·
• Circa 150-180
  Marcus Aelius Aurelius Antoninus - wrote the Stoic Meditations - he refers once to the Christians (possibly an interpolation) in XI, 3 "What a soul that is which is ready, if at any moment it must be separated from the body, and ready either to be extinguished or dispersed, or continue to exist; but so that this readiness comes from a man’s own judgment, not from mere obstinacy, as with the Christians, but considerately and with dignity, and in a way to persuade another without scenic show."
  Mara Bar-Serapion, as early as this, wrote: "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished."
  
  Lucius Apuleius - wrote the Metamorphoses (the Golden Ass or Transformations of Lucius) and many other spiritual, historical, and philosophic works - several survive.
  Apollodorus - compiled a large Greek Mythology.
  Appian wrote Roman History.
  Aulus Gellius wrote Attic Nights (Nights in Athens), a large compendium of many topics.
  Cassius Maximus Tyrius, a Greek NeoPlatonic philosopher, wrote many works.
  Hephaestion of Alexandria wrote Enchiridion, On Confusions in Poems; Solutions to Difficulties in Comedy; Solutions in Tragedy; and very many other works.
  Pausanius wrote the massive Guide to Greece
  Sextus Empiricus wrote Outlines of Scepticism.
  Menodotus of Nicomedia wrote on medicine.
  Numenius of Apamea wrote philosophy.
  Tiberius Claudius Herodes Atticus (Marcus Aurelius' teacher) spoke - On the Constitution.
  ·
• 170 C.E.
  Lucian of Samosata satirised Christians and their priests at length.
  ·
• 176-190 C.E.
  Galen wrote many works in Rome - some books on medicine, and some fragments which mention Christ or Christians survive : De pulsuum differentiis, iii.3 : ''One might more easily teach novelties to the followers of Moses and Christ than to the physicians and philosophers who cling fast to their schools.'' ii.4 : ''...in order that one should not at the very beginning, as if one had come into the school of Moses and Christ, hear talk of undemonstrated laws, and that where it is least appropriate.'' A passage which survives only in an Arabic quotation: ''If I had in mind people who taught their pupils in the same way as the followers of Moses and Christ teach theirs--for they order them to accept everything on faith--I should not have given you a definition.'' A passage taken from Galen's lost summary of Plato's Republic, only preserved in Arabic quotations: ''Most people are unable to follow any demonstrative argument consecutively; hence they need parables, and benefit from them...just as now we see the people called Christians drawing their faith from parables [and miracles], and yet sometimes acting in the same way [as those who philosophize]. For their contempt of death [and its sequel] is patent to us every day, and likewise their restraint in cohabitation...'' (Richard Walzer: Galen on Jews and Christians, 1949)
  ·
• Circa178
  Celsus wrote his On The True Doctrine criticising Christianity : '' Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth'' , ''It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction ''
  Lucius Flavius Philostratus was born ca.170 CE on the Greek island of Lemnus. He became one of the leading sophists or orators of his day, spent some years at the Roman imperial court, and publicized several books, among which are Life of the sophists and an intriguing biography of the charismatic miracle worker Apollonius of Tyana. Philostratus died between 244 and 249.

At the moment, we have no means of accurately arriving at the motives of the putative interpolators. And its not that critical for one to establish a motive in order for an argument for interpolation to stand.
Logically, Jesus having a brother could have bothered the early church fathers, but we know Eusebius espoused the idea of Mary's perpetual virginity despite the fact that he knew Josephus mentioned James as Jesus' brother What does that tell us? Theists have an incredible capacity to embrace conflicting viewpoints concurrently.
Maybe they realized a lot later(when it was too late for interpolation) that the passage in Antiquities 20 was a slap in their face.

God fry n.glad

Sounds reasonable - I wonder what Peter Kirby can say to this.

Peter Kirby

Actually, the list is from the web site of Quentin David Jones.

<a href="http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/No-History.html" target="_blank">http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/No-History.html</a>

The list is based on Remsberg, but most of the points and the wording is due to Jones, as can be seen from a comparison with Remsberg's book.

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg02.htm" target="_blank">http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg02.htm</a>

Intensity writes: Sounds reasonable - I wonder what Peter Kirby can say to this.

The reference in the twentieth book was not quoted by any ancient writer in order to establish the existence of Jesus, and so in an important sense it has not become part and parcel of Christian apologetics until modern times.

No evidence has been offered for the hypothetical original passage and conjectured amendation.

best,
Peter Kirby

Ted Hoffman

Wow Peter, thanks for the Info. I noticed Quentin says "This page is inspired by that list and my wish to see it expanded, updated and corrected.

I have added additional explanation concerning some of the writers - there is paucity of info. I hope it counts for something - like the info I have added on Sextus (gives him some form of relevance) and on C. Musonius Rufus, Pomponius Mela etc. I beleive I have made the list more edifying in a way.

Do you find the possibility of emendation by a (pagan) scribe reasonable? I think its unfavourable nature to the perpetual virginity of Mary might have dissuaded any church fathers interested in mentioning something about Jesus from actually citing the passage.

I mean, it sounds reasonable that a scribe might have wanted to clarify who James was.

From The Catholic Encyclopaedia, the following List indicates the early church fathers who embraced the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity

• St. Irenaeus (III, 21; see Eusebius, H.E., V, viii),
• Origen (Adv. Cels., I, 35),
• Tertullian (Adv. Marcion., III, 13; Adv. Judæos, IX),
• St. Justin (Dial. con. Tryph., 84),
• St. John Chrysostom (Hom. v in Matth., n. 3; in Isa., VII, n. 5);
• St. Epiphanius (Hær., xxviii, n. 7),
• Eusebius (Demonstrat. ev., VIII, i),
• Rufinus (Lib. fid., 43),
• St. Basil (in Isa., vii, 14; Hom. in S. Generat. Christi, n. 4, if St. Basil be the author of these two passages),
• St. Jerome and Theodoretus (in Isa., vii, 14),
• St. Isidore (Adv. Judæos, I, x, n. 3),
• St. Ildefonsus (De perpetua virginit. s. Mariæ, iii).

Its no wonder the Antiquities 20 reference has been largely ignored.

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

Tristan Scott

No I'm not. I'm assuming that Jesus' supposed divinity only goes back to the time of arius and Athenasius. It is during this time that interpolations would have been made, IMO.

Tristan Scott

That's a stretch. Why would anything about Jesus, during his lifetime, have been on anyone's radar screen. For all we know he was strictly small potatoes during his lifetime. He may have had a few hundred followers at most, probably more like dozens, and those were from the relatively "backwater" area of Galilee. I think it is also important to realize that, unlike modern times, written word was a rarity, and in a place like Galilee it was doubly so.

No, I think if Jesus existed at all, it shouldn't be surprising that there was nothing written about him except what was written by his followers.