Leviathan

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...33#post1100633

In an effort to keep the aforementioned thread on its specific topic, I've decided to open this new thread, to discuss the constitutionality of Affirmative Action.

Resolved: Affirmative Action violates the equal protection clause of the 14th and 5th Amendment(s).

Any takers?

Loren Pechtel

Since I agree with your preposition I'll certainly not argue against it!

Leviathan

The Constitution "neither knows nor tolerates classes among citizens." � Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 US 537, 559 (Harlan, dissent) Cited by Romer v. Evans, 517 US 620

Like situated people will be treated alike. City of Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, 473 US 432, 439.

xorbie

Well I suppose you could argue that in order for people to be treated alike, they must first be treated differently. As in, in order to end discrimination, we must use programs such as affirmative action. But I don't see that flying in a courtroom... (I am playing devil's advocate, you well know that my opposition to affirmative action lies not only in its violation of the constitution but on its merits alone).

Leviathan

Actually, that argument has flown in THE courtroom, given that the recent affirmative action decisions said something along the same lines.

This is one topic where I break ranks with my usual liberal bent, and agree with the conservatives. Using race as a factor to denounce racism is the same as the great phrase about warmongering.

"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity."

Rusting Car Bumper

Even though I could think of cases where affirmative action might produce good practical results, I think it clearly violates the equal protection clause.

DC

xorbie

Leviathon, you seem to know a good deal about law (or at least a whole lot more than I do). I was wondering what your take is on the constitionality of gun control.

Leviathan

No S. Ct. case has ever ruled that the people do not have the right to bear arms. Thus, there is no definitive statement about what the 2nd Amendment really says. Until we resolve that pickle, we'll never be able to ascertain whether the legality of gun control laws are correct or not.

(I tend to side with the liberal bent, that gun control laws are good, and I have a more restrictive reading of the 2nd Amendment)

Tristan Scott

That's fine, except Affirmative Action laws don't necessarily stipulate that race should be used except to define what shouldn't be done. There is no way of having an anti-discrimination law if you don't stipulate on who it is that shouldn't be disriminated against. You can't have a law, for example, that says you can't discriminate against anyone for any reason.

Leviathan

I'm honestly confused by what you're trying to say. Affirmative Action laws provide preferential treatment for minorities, in such fields as education, as a way to "level the playing field." In contrast to your understanding that Affirmative Action is merely a prohibitive set of laws preventing discrimination, it is doing more than "defining what shouldn't be done," it is an affirmative, state-sponsored, discrimination of seperating the citizens of the United STates of America into "classes" of citizens. The government isn't prohibiting action, those are equal rights laws, the government is, in contrast to your understanding, actively pursuing action that differentiates citizens into "black, white, and other" categories.

I would have hoped Justice Harlan's message, concerning no class of citizens, would have been learned by now.