David Bowden

I've skimmed the thread but I don't think this question has been answered by a Christian:

"Do we have a clear, unambiguous definition of the necessary and sufficient conditions for being a True Christian, and if so, what exactly are those conditions?"

And as a follow-up: "How do you know that God agrees with that definition exclusively?"

I'm not so concerned with this or that theological school's opinion. What does Christianity say the answer is, beyond all doubt, beyond all misunderstanding, and most importantly, one would think, absolutely endorsed by God?

-Wanderer

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

Bill Snedden

Actually, the Bible has Jesus saying that, not Peter.

"Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my church". In Latin, the phrase is "Tu es Petrus, et super hanc Petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam.". The name "Peter" is similar to the word for "rock" in Latin and this is actually one of the primary statements from which the alleged authority of the RC Pope is supposedly derived.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Snedden ]</p>

G B Mayes

The Bible contains many wonderful messages and directions for life in a multi-layered complexity, suitable for the illiterate to the most learned. In its richness various snippets can be pulled out to confuse the message, make it seem contradictory or otherwise discredit it. Considering the Bible on its whole the definition of a Christian is crystal clear and simple.

A Christian:
1.)believes Christ is the Son of God, included in the Godhead.
2.) believes Christ was crucified and died.
3.) believes Christ was resurrected on the third day.
4.) accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior.

That is the definition of a Christian. Anyone who does not meet those requirements is not a Christian, whether he is a Pope or a commoner. Many, if not most, who claim to be Christians are claiming falsely. However, it is not the job of one Christian to determine whether a fellow "Christian" is real or not. Only God knows a persons' heart.

-Brent

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: G B Mayes ]</p>

Rational Ag

So Mormons are True Christians then?

I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

-Rational Ag

ManM

Well IvanK, I apologize for not being around. I suspect you know how things get at the end of a semester. Last week saw me getting around 4 hours of sleep per night, and 3 hours total from Wed-Fri. But I do have an impressive stack of soda cans now!

For the record, I am not a troll. I have been registered for quite some time now and have always posted under this name. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. Your analysis of the doctor troubles me. I do not know of a single doctor who desires to cause pain to a patient. However, he may be forced to do so in order to avoid a greater evil. By your definition, any doctor who causes pain but does not desire to cause that pain is a raving lunatic. I fear this means we have an entire profession of raving lunatics on our hands...

Knowing a "spirit of love" is a matter of experience. You know it when you see it in others, and you know it when you feel it in yourself. It is obvious that you don't need the bible to tell you that. The bible is a book of the teachings/history of Jesus and the Church. It is necessary because Jesus gave us all eternal life, whether we believe or not. In the bible we are told the conditions of the next life, and we are shown the path to prepare for it. A traveler does not throw away his directions, and likewise we do not throw away the bible. You don't need the directions to know what a left turn is, but that doesn't mean the directions are worthless.

SharonDee

Hello, Brent. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us calmly and rationally about your beliefs.

You know, I tried to make this very argument elsewhere on the Internet, only to have Matthew 7:19-23 thrown at me:

Now what?

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: SharonDee ]</p>

IvanK

I do not know of a single doctor who would consciously set out to cause pain in order to cure a patient. Medical procedures, especially surgical ones, do often result in pain. But doctors typically at least attempt to alleive this pain through the use of anasthetics and analgesics.

And in any case that's all beside the point, which is how can Jesus say he wants us all to be one in John and also say he came to divide son from father and so on in Matthew? You have yet to answer that one except by attempting to make pointless analogies such as the doctor one, as you have yet to answer my second question about why you think anyone needs Jesus to be saved if by "being saved" you mean "having a spirit of love."

Posting a statement and refusing to answer questions about it directly is among my definitions of a troll. Take issue with the term if you will, but if the shoe fits, wear it.

Kosh

Haven't you been paying attention to marketing
lately? "Value Added" is all the rage in
business models....

G B Mayes

-Rational Ag:
I am not an expert on Mormonism or other religions so I can not answer with any degree of authority. It is my understanding that Mormons consider Jesus something of a spiritual brother, like us, the first child of God, but not Deity Himself. They are to demonstate faith by following Christ's commands but not by trusting in Him as their Savior. More to the point, their's is a system of works and obedience to the church rather than simply accepting Christ's sacrifice as full and complete payment for one's sins. That's what I mean by ..Lord and Savior.
If the above is correct, then Mormons that adhere to those beliefs would not be Christians.[/I]

SharonDee:
SharonDee I'm not sure whether you or referring to my definition or to judging others. Regardless, let's pull in the preceeding four verses,Mat 7:15-18:

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I think the primary purpose of verses 15-20 is to warn against false prophets. When I mentioned it is not one Christians' job to judge whether or not another is a true "Christian", I meant that it was wrong in a general judgmental sense. It falls under the heading of "Who are we to judge another's servant." First let us judge ourselves. This is not to say that we should not quietly consider another's actions and fruits if we are going to relate to them in a faith-based fashion. False prophets or false witness are ever present. These people trade off of Christ's name for personal gain. Without naming names, I think some of the tele-evangelists and faith-healers fit in this category. Not only do they profit from their schemes but their hypocricy helps drive others from the faith. This is what got Simon the Magician in trouble in Act 8:9-24. Simon does seem to have been saved but was severely repremanded. I believe anyone that fits my definition of a Christian is saved. I think verse 19 is one of those "snippits" that seem to contradict my definition but in the overall context of the Bible is not a criterion of salvation. Good fruits or works are a result of, not the cause of salvation. They are inevitable given time. So it is reasonable to expect that one who professes to be a Christian but produces no good fruit is a liar, e.g., the false prophets. In that regard I believe the most wicked of persons that meets the criteria I've listed can have a death-bed conversion and be saved. He had no time to produce fruit between his salvation and physical death.

Verses 21-23 continue in the vein of the false prophets. Again, consider certain faith-healers and certain (by no means all) tele-evangelists. They give prophesy, "heal", and fill their speech with "Jesus says this" and "Jesus wants so-and-so" and if you send money "Jesus will give you ..." These people are not true believers and God will not be fooled. They do not meet the definition of a Christian and Christ will rightly say, "I never knew you".

-Brent

Bree

You're right.

I can't believe I never looked it up. All my life I've believed that Peter said that and not Jesus. My pastor taught us that the verse was the prime example as to why the Catholic Church was evil - it showed that Peter was acting selfishly and founded the Church upon that selfishness - therefore the Church was bad.

Wow - yet another brainwashing!