Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 03-09-2003, 02:49 AM

There is a debate at http://www.theologyweb.com/ about prophecy fulfillment, which is interesting to see how Christians react

The link is
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...?threadid=1445

wordsmyth · 03-09-2003, 08:50 AM

Robert Turkel aka JP Holding is a miserable apologist. His arguments tend to be long winded, yet lack anything of substance.

Farrell Till has thoroughly trounced him in debate and while it was mildly amusing at first it quickly became quite painful to watch. Turkel's arguments are based on little more than dubious interpolations and "straw man" tactics. Turkel's only redeeming quality is his flair for sarcasm and snide comments, which unfortunately are not adequate substitutes for a sound argument.

I also found it rather silly that Turkel refers to himself in the first person plural "we" throughout the debate.

Vinnie · 03-09-2003, 09:47 AM

You linked to an 8 page thread

My main interest right now over there is in the problem of suffering debate.

Holding decided to throw some pebbles over there at me. Something about me not being able to argue my way out of a paper bag

Then again, one of Holding's fans was arguing that the apostle Matthew wrote GMatthew and that it dates 30-40 ad

Vinnie

anime · 03-22-2003, 05:14 PM

In Matthew 24:5 Jesus says 'For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many.'

It is important to remember that the original Greek texts contained no punctuation marks. Or chapter or verse numbers for that matter.

The punctuation you see is based soley on the human authority of the translators, which is fallible.

I can't think of too many Christians (which is what we call people who come in Christ's name) who claim to be the Christ, but there are many Christians who say that Jesus is the Christ.

In other words (Christ speaking) "Many will com in My name, saying I am Christ, and will deceive many" (the First Seal).

"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, lord..." etc.

Carrie · 03-23-2003, 12:03 PM

Anime,

Holy shnikies, I never realized that Jesus could have meant that people who claim him to be the Christ are the deceivers! But you're right, it can be read that way when you remove the punctuation marks.

However, if he didn't think he was the Christ, how does that fit in with him saying that the Son of Man will come on the clouds of the sky? (Matt 24:30). Isn't Jesus referring to himself as the Son of Man? And wouldn't the Son of Man also be the Christ?

03-09-2003, 02:49 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Matthew 24:5 There is a debate at http://www.theologyweb.com/ about prophecy fulfillment, which is interesting to see how Christians react The link is http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...?threadid=1445

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03-09-2003, 08:50 AM	#2
wordsmyth Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Des Moines, Ia. U.S.A. Posts: 521	Robert Turkel aka JP Holding is a miserable apologist. His arguments tend to be long winded, yet lack anything of substance. Farrell Till has thoroughly trounced him in debate and while it was mildly amusing at first it quickly became quite painful to watch. Turkel's arguments are based on little more than dubious interpolations and "straw man" tactics. Turkel's only redeeming quality is his flair for sarcasm and snide comments, which unfortunately are not adequate substitutes for a sound argument. I also found it rather silly that Turkel refers to himself in the first person plural "we" throughout the debate.

03-09-2003, 09:47 AM	#3
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	You linked to an 8 page thread My main interest right now over there is in the problem of suffering debate. Holding decided to throw some pebbles over there at me. Something about me not being able to argue my way out of a paper bag Then again, one of Holding's fans was arguing that the apostle Matthew wrote GMatthew and that it dates 30-40 ad Vinnie

03-22-2003, 05:14 PM	#4
anime Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Anaheim, California Posts: 67	In Matthew 24:5 Jesus says 'For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many.' It is important to remember that the original Greek texts contained no punctuation marks. Or chapter or verse numbers for that matter. The punctuation you see is based soley on the human authority of the translators, which is fallible. I can't think of too many Christians (which is what we call people who come in Christ's name) who claim to be the Christ, but there are many Christians who say that Jesus is the Christ. In other words (Christ speaking) "Many will com in My name, saying I am Christ, and will deceive many" (the First Seal). "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, lord..." etc.

03-23-2003, 12:03 PM	#5
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	Anime, Holy shnikies, I never realized that Jesus could have meant that people who claim him to be the Christ are the deceivers! But you're right, it can be read that way when you remove the punctuation marks. However, if he didn't think he was the Christ, how does that fit in with him saying that the Son of Man will come on the clouds of the sky? (Matt 24:30). Isn't Jesus referring to himself as the Son of Man? And wouldn't the Son of Man also be the Christ?

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