Darth Dane

Yes, muffin, Jesus was indeed aware of teh innocence of children, and the prison of their minds that their parents put them in, because they themselves are in it.

Free your mind, think on your own




DD - Love Spliff

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
Hmm. I don't really remember the last time I told a child that he was corrupt or sinful.

I've done Nutwatches on Christian sites which not only stated that children were naturally corrupt and sinful, but that this natural evil should be beaten out of them, much as dust is beaten out of a carpet. Lucky carpets, they don't bruise.

Muffinstuffer

Oh I don't doubt it. But the key word there is 'nut.' I'm all for spanking a kid WHEN they deserve it, and I do believe in the concept of original sin, but beating...that's just wrong. I know, because I used to GET beaten daily. Not fun. You actually saw sites saying the evil should be BEATEN out of them?

Mageth

"Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."

Hmm. It seems to me that not only is Jesus extolling the virtues of childlike faith, but he is also telling everyone that the Kingdom of God belongs to children. If that doesn't mean that they are not going to Heaven, I don't know what it means.

Remember, Jesus also said "The Kingdom of God is within you." Kingdom of God is not necessarily equivalent to Heaven (in the Sky Palace sense). I don't think one can automatically conclude from Jesus' above statement that he meant children are going to that place in the sky. After all, how could one receive Heaven? How could Heaven belong to someone?

I think Jesus was teaching an inner search for realization of one's identity with the transcendant - reaching "heaven on earth" in this lifetime; a very Eastern thought, and one I think that the Christian Church (and particular Paul) labeled "heresy" and drove out of their Religion, replacing it with the "necessity" of reaching an external Heaven through external intervention rather than internal self-realization of one's "oneness" with the transcendent (though they left hints here and there in Jesus' words; for a stronger indication of this, read the Gospel of Thomas). Allowing people to find their own path to transcendance interferes with control from above, after all.

Philosoft

The problem isn't you, it's doctrinal Christianity.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
Oh I don't doubt it. But the key word there is 'nut.' I'm all for spanking a kid WHEN they deserve it,

And they are also for spanking children when they deserve it, which may be for excessive crying as an infant. As the book of Proverbs says, foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him.

and I do believe in the concept of original sin,

So do they. This means that when an infant or child rebels or disobeys, it is due to a natural tendency towards evil, which of course should be corrected.

but beating...that's just wrong.

Blows that hurt cleanse away evil... Proverbs again.

I know, because I used to GET beaten daily. Not fun. You actually saw sites saying the evil should be BEATEN out of them?

I'm sorry you had to go through that, MS. Personally, I don't think children should ever be hit in any way or for any reason, much less that they should be bruised, welted and then told that this is due to their own natural evil. But the following Nutwatches feature sites that either explicitly or implicitly encourage Christians to use excessive physical force against babies and children:

Kingdom Identity Ministries

"Our Speak Softly Spanking Stick may not be hickory, but it serves the same purpose in teaching children good old-fashioned discipline. Each 16" x 1 1/2" stick is imprinted with Scripture verses. $2.00"

Church of the Great God

"When our children are in church and they are making a noise (and they shouldn’t be), you can just bop them right on their lips."

Biblebelievers.com

"Remember children are born with a decided bias towards evil... one thing the mother can say with certainty: he will have a corrupt and sinful heart."

The Patriarch's Path

"There are times when it is clear that the infant is not getting what he wants, so he screams in protest. This is a form of revolt that should be nipped in the proverbial bud… Those who wait until a child is two or three to start spanking are definitely waiting too long."

And all this is because, according to Jesus is Lord, "You do not have to teach a child to do evil. They do it automatically."

BioBeing

A slight aside form the central theme here, but the religiously inspired (I hesistate to say biblically, but it may well be) and very popular books on childrearing Babywise has also come under significant criticism from pediatricians as causing failure to thrive. Basically, the books tell parents to feed their newborns on a strict schedule, not, as doctors recommend, on demand. (other books focus on later life isssues) My wife and I started to read it, and hated it before we even knew the whole story surrounding it. See e.g. http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/9108.html

Pyrrho

Luke 18:15-17:

People should bring their children to Jesus, which would not be necessary if they were already going to heaven. (The verse says that to such who come to Jesus is the Kingdom of God.) Furthermore, it is expressing how adults should accept Jesus. Verse 17 makes that clear, as well as the fact that one must accept Jesus to enter heaven.

Consider Mark 6:

We can see that saying that children who have not heard obviously do not go to heaven, as "he that believeth not shall be damned." And Romans 3:

So, all deserve to burn in hell forever, so when children go to hell, it is what they deserve.

The idea that babies are exempt is NOWHERE in the Bible, and, in fact, is directly contrary to what the Bible explicitly states.

This is a perfect example of how irrational some so-called "Christians" are, as the source of Christianity is the Bible, yet many go directly against it. IF the Bible is the word of God, then children burn in hell. IF the Bible is just anther book written by men, then let us ignore it completely, and not pretend to follow it at all.

I suspect that the true source of the idea that babies are exempt is the feeling that many have that such a doctrine is unfair. However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with what appears in the Bible. The doctrine of Original Sin, passed on from generation to generation, is quite clear in the Bible, regardless of whether it is unfair or not. If it were not passed on, we would all be entitled to be born into the Garden of Eden. Do you think it is unfair that children are born into this world to suffer because of the actions of Adam and Eve? If so, you reject the Bible, and should not pretend otherwise.

You want to have it both ways: You use the Bible whenever it pleases you, and ignore it when you wish it said something different. Tell me, is the Bible the WORD OF GOD, or is it just another book, written by men? If the former, you should follow it ALL, not just selected bits of it. If the latter, then let us chuck it in the waste bin, as a pack of lies that it must be (since within it, it purports to be the word of God). So tell me, is it the Word of God or not?

Opera Nut

Also the original Holy Trinity was Father, Mother Holy Spirit, and Son, according to John.

Pyrrho

By most standards today, the Bible advocates physical abuse as well—even killing children. Jesus directly commands it, as well as saying that one should obey ALL of the laws of the Old Testament (all quotes are King James Version unless otherwise specified):

Matthew 15:

(You have to start reading at the beginning of the chapter to know that it is Jesus speaking.)

He is referring to Leviticus 20:

And Deuteronomy 21:

Jesus says that ALL of the laws of the Old Testament are to be followed in Matthew 5:

In fact, thinking otherwise wouldn't make any sense. Do people think God changed His mind about what people ought to do? That He made a mistake about what the laws should be?

Really, most people who call themselves Christians ignore the Bible and make up whatever they want to believe, and then occasionally find a verse that happens to support one of the things they want to believe, and then pretend that they are using the Bible as a guide to their lives.