Goliath

Odemus,

Fair enough, although I don't need your permission to do anything.

Tsk, tsk. Such a feeble attempt to say that a lack of belief and a belief are the same. Again, you are demonstrably wrong.

I care because they try to rewrite history and destroy my civil liberties.

Salespeople don't try to claim that I have no morals simply because I have no god belief. Are you capable of understanding the difference?

I'm sorry, but dictionaries describe usage, they do not prescribe definitions. Furthermore, since you are a theist, I will not allow you to posit the definition of *my* atheism. Verstehen?

No questions, only a suggestion: Learn what atheism is before you make any statements about it.

I had asked what you meant by "higher," as in "higher purpose." You replied with:

How can one objectively measure meaning? What do you mean by a "greater value?" What if values are only partially ordered, and not totally ordered (ie what if there are certain values that are incomparable)?

Way to dodge the question. I'll ask it again: Why must life have a higher purpose? This time, please do not assume that life has a higher purpose in explaining why it must have such a purpose.

This is absolutely incorrect. There are many assertions that have been proven (eg. the statement of Fermat's Last Theorem).

After I die, my life will have meaning to others, and my life will have had meaning to myself. Just because my life has meaning now doesn't mean that it's meaningless.

Unsupported assertion that a plant can value anything, let alone sunlight. Are plants even conscious?

Because finding flaws in arguments is good mental exercise, and also because if a proof of the existence of a god is found, I want to know about it.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Odemus

Yep, but outside the existence of God those terms are equally subjective to me with reference to value and meaning as whatever you find lends your life meaning.


Even if I am delusional in my belief, how can you make a comparative assesment between the value of my life and yours?In the end we both cease to exist and this argument holds as much meaning to us as it does to a sequoia.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>

Goliath

Odemus,

You seem fond of (for reasons unknown to me) quoting the II mission statement. In your mind, is following the II mission statement a necessary condition for an atheist to post on this message board?

In other words, in your little universe, is it possible for an atheist to post here without agreeing to the II mission statement?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Eudaimonist

What?!?

If we can't help but do this, no matter what we may choose to do with our lives, how can it be our meaning? It is someone else's meaning and purpose to achieve, not ours.

What is wrong with biocentric pursuits? Why should acting in a life-affirming manner be any less meaningful than anything else? Productive work can be fulfilling.

Before then, we both exist. It is during this time that meaning matters. Why do you insist otherwise?

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

Theli

Odemus...

Yes, I agree. But you were going on and on about "greater purpose" and "higher meaning".
And I just wonder what this came from.
What higher meaning were you reffering to?

I think you are barking at the wrong person here. I never said anything about my life's meaning/value being greater than yours.

So you are not a christian after all?
So, why did you post it?
What is your reason for being on this board?
And why are you talking about meanings when we are dead? Why not focus on meanings now?

Odemus

That's not what I was saying.I am saying that you are able to address my statements from your perspective by applying your system of belief to the context of my reasoning (or lack thereof). If I have to pay homage to every possible angle one could approach a query with, this discussion is more meaningless than meaningless.So please dispense with the political correctness and forgive my ignorant transgressions of your most sacred philosophy.


Do I need to display a list of every religious and non religious entity that tries to do the exact same thing?

Regardless, what about history has been so terribly ruined by Christians that an intellectual persistence can't correct (yes, sarcasm)?Which of your civil liberties are threatened by Christians?


Funny, I didn't take you for the type who likes to portray himself as a victim.Why would you be so insecure in your own beliefs that it should matter what assertions others make about you?

Odemus

Time constraints, will return later

RogerLeeCooke

Hey, who started this conversation? I didn't seek you out and try to convert you. As it happens, I engage in debate for the same reason people like to sit around a fire and talk: it's fun. But you really, really don't get it, do you? You have arbitrarily defined "meaning" in a sense that pleases you, never mind that your definition is just words. I get the same feeling from reading your words that I get after explaining to a creationist all about erosion and having him come back with, "But that still doesn't explain who dug the Grand Canyon."

But you are mostly a one-note writer. No matter what argument anybody gives you, you insist they need some grounds for wanting to discuss the issue with you. They don't; desires don't need grounds.

phlebas

Good question. Although since the Search feature on this forum doesn't work so well last I looked, I guess I can't blame the occasional theist for not bothering to read over the thousands of other repititions of this question.

And I think the only answer is that there isn't one aside from enjoying ourselves.

I think now you're just disingenuously asking questions to try to win by volume. I never said my genetic coding was superior or inferior to anyone elses.

Yep. That's actually my point.

If the only alternative to pointless questions is pointless and inconsistent preaching, I'll take the questions.

Ah. So our children are here to provide us with happiness. If they fail, do we get to torture them? (My condolences to your offspring.)

Nope! I'd have to show you what Heaven is to do that, and since its existence is very much at the core of the issue, can't really help you there, chum. All I can do is think as logically as I can, whether it matters that I do or not.

Who do I have to be?

What is the point of doing that if there IS a god?

Irrelevant. The point is that no matter how profound or enjoyable anyone of any age finds anything in a mortal world, it's all a pile of stinking crap by comparison. That is why Heaven makes Earth so bleak, and that is what makes that god of your so cruel by making us live here instead of skipping the middle-man and going right to Heaven. (You don't make your child sleep in the yard until she earns a spot inside, do you?)

Because if there is no perfect afterlife, Mozart might be as good as it gets. That sort of encourages me to listen.

Why?

Won't make the slightest difference to me, since I'll be back into my component molecules. But my life might influence some as-yet-unborn people. In that sense, it would matter to them in their lives.

I have no idea about the life you live. If it is anything like my life when I believed in that god person, then I would find it unsatisfactory and not at all conducive to earthly happiness. If you have learned to like it, congrats. Enjoy your Helsinki Syndrome

Not you specifically. The theistic mass which mostly runs the country. A theocracy would be a miserable place to be an atheist.

Nope. I'm not trying to disabuse you of your personal revelations. Surely you understand that such stories are not at all compelling, though.

As for empirical evidence, the best I can do is point to all the places I don't see a god. But you're making the claim, you show me the spot where he's hiding. And then you can ask him what the point behind his hiding would be.

Not until you defined what you meant by "love." Can you prove that I don't love invisible leprechauns EVEN MORE than you love your sky daddy? If not, does that mean you admit the existence of invisible leprechauns?

I didn't say I didn't enjoy it. I wouldn't be here otherwise.

Again, depends on the definition and the subjective opinion of the people involved.

One last thing -- put a space after a sentence. It DOES matter, because it aides in reading your writings.

RogerLeeCooke

OK, there's your first hidden (and false) assumption: "A person who doesn't believe in God is completely indifferent to what other people think." If you thought about this for even one minute, you'd see that it's a colossal non sequitur. Why in the world should the ordinary social needs for approval and affection disappear in an atheist? Do you assume we also don't get hungry? Don't scratch where it itches? Maybe we don't bleed either.

But if you must cram the answer into your crabbed philosophy that assumes everyone acts only from immediate, narrow self-interest, maybe the answer that my own civil rights depends on what the majority is willing to allow me. Our 41st President said explicitly that atheists shouldn't be considered citizens.

Maybe not for you. That's your business. But I don't have to accept your Pickwickian definition of meaning.

Gee, I thought at least you understood what self-interest was. But here's hidden assumption No. 2. I'm not TRYING to escape my impending demise. Are you obsessed with your own? Is that why you assume I am also?


I knew you wouldn't get it. "Better" to me means "more like the kind of society I want". My wants, including my wants about society, don't cease to function just because I don't believe in God.

In other words, you don't have any answer to my question, so you choose to insert a definition that wasn't needed.

Look, if you don't want to debate, don't debate. Why I care is my business. I don't have to have reasons that fit your definition of grounds.


I always thought it was my right to have an opinion if I want to. You seem to think I need someone's permission or some cosmic justification to want to do the things I want to do. I told you what I said was my opinion. You can take it or leave it, but spending huge amounts of your time and money worshipping a nonexistent deity is, in my view, a waste of time.

And you are really getting boring with this "what does it matter?" line. We all understand it; we've all heard it a hundred times before. If you can't see any purpose in life other than hoping to get into another life that you know nothing about, that's your problem, not mine. But repeating it ad nauseam adds nothing to the debate.