Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Page · 04-26-2003, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SULPHUR
I don't have to prove god exists or not. But you have to prove that their is nosuch thing as god/s.

*sigh* Then tell me about this god/these gods.

meritocrat · 04-27-2003, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by slamanamp
I openly challenge all intellectual atheists (those who avoid the use of �ad hominem� attack) to debate me on the issue of the existence of God. Does God Exist? What happens when we die? Surely you have all at least pondered on these questions. I purpose that you cannot argue against the existence of God unless you first assume his existence. For even in voicing that you disagree you are depending on the transcendental truth that language has objective meaning. But if there is nothing higher than man out there then there is nothing to say that anything must be objective. But you say mans has refined this system over time and it has always worked. A simple refutation of that is the past is by no means a reliable guide for the future, just because it always has worked doesn�t mean it will tomorrow. You breathe the air God created and deny his existence while exhaling it.
(I might add that �ad hominem� literally translated means �to the man� which means attacking the person not the argument)
Thank you and I look forward to your responses , Slamanamp

You know, religius people are some of the most malevolent people I am acquainted with. Why should you force people to believe in God?

Ronin · 04-27-2003, 12:58 AM

There is no such thing as a god.

If such a creature existed, belief would be rendered unnecessary, and the entire industry of organized religion would collapse.

meritocrat · 04-27-2003, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SULPHUR
I don't have to prove god exists or not. But you have to prove that their is nosuch thing as god/s.

Non sequitur. No one has first hand knowledge of whether God exists or not. You cannot 'prove' or 'disprove' his existence?

mongrel · 04-27-2003, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SULPHUR
I don't have to prove god exists or not. But you have to prove that their is nosuch thing as god/s.

If, by "you", you mean an atheist, I think you are getting the wrong impression of what an atheist is(please correct me if I'm wrong).

As far as I know, "atheist" quite literally means without a god-belief. It has no meaning as far as dogmatically denying the existence of a god(s)(even though some dictionaries give this as one definition- they are wrong, IMO), although some atheists do.

Also, AFAIK, "agnostic" literally means something very similar, like having no knowledge of a higher power, or something along those lines.

To me, these two terms, if my very rough definitions are correct(any wordaholics?), don't conflict at all. They could also be used interchangeably.

SULPHUR · 04-28-2003, 04:12 AM

I'll take the OED.Atheists say there is no god.Agnostics say give proof.

mongrel · 04-28-2003, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SULPHUR
I'll take the OED.Atheists say there is no god.Agnostics say give proof.

I would speculate that the OED's definition was written by theists. IIRC, the OED(although it could be another dictionary, but I think it's that one) also has definitions of biblical events, and characters, which it mentions as if they are factual, and beyond doubt. If this is the case, do you also agree with those, too? Hardly an unbiased publication, if that is the case. Since I don't have a copy, could you tell me if that is the case, and what alternative definitions for "atheist" it gives? I bet they're hardly flattering.

I'd much rather stick with the literal definition. Here is an interesting article from this search I did at Positive Atheism. Make of this what you will.

John Page · 04-28-2003, 05:12 AM

I used to be agnostic, but now I'm not so sure........

mongrel · 04-28-2003, 05:31 AM

SULPHUR, I just found this site, and I found that one definition for "god" is "Creator and ruler of the universe". Do you accept this definition? I don't, and I don't think you do, either. It reads like it's a foregone conclusion that there is some supreme being in control.

For the word "ark", it states it's the ship in which Noah escaped the flood. No reference to it being disputed(or even that it's biblical)- just stated as a factual historic event.

In other words, I wouldn't trust OED to give an unbiased definition of "atheist".

tensorproduct · 04-28-2003, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tribalbeeyatch
That sounds about like my "conclusion" for these matters. That's why I'm an atheist (I lack a belief in gods...) and an agnostic (...because I have no knowledge of them). For me, your assertion that agnosticism is the only logical position (as contrasted to atheism) is absurd. There is no middle ground between atheism and theism, just as there is no middle ground between gnosticism and agnosticism. As far as I'm concerned, agnostics are for the most part just atheists who, for whatever reason, are uncomfortable with the label. That's fine with me; call yourself whatever you wish. Just don't stand on the other side of a distinction without a difference and tell me that I'm illogical.

Quote:

quote:agnostic n.
person who believes that the existence of God is not provable. adj. of agnosticism.[/B]

This is the definition of agnostic that I was thinking of, and is clearly different from an atheist. I didn't mean to call anyone illogical, and certaintly don't wish to offend anyone, But after all in these matters it's just a question of faith.

04-28-2003, 04:12 AM	#86
SULPHUR Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: hobart,tasmania Posts: 551	definitions I'll take the OED.Atheists say there is no god.Agnostics say give proof.

04-28-2003, 05:12 AM	#88
John Page Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: US Posts: 5,495	A challenge to agnostics I used to be agnostic, but now I'm not so sure........

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04-27-2003, 12:58 AM	#83
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	There is no such thing as a god. If such a creature existed, belief would be rendered unnecessary, and the entire industry of organized religion would collapse.

04-28-2003, 05:31 AM	#89
mongrel Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: North of the South Pole Posts: 5,177	SULPHUR, I just found this site, and I found that one definition for "god" is "Creator and ruler of the universe". Do you accept this definition? I don't, and I don't think you do, either. It reads like it's a foregone conclusion that there is some supreme being in control. For the word "ark", it states it's the ship in which Noah escaped the flood. No reference to it being disputed(or even that it's biblical)- just stated as a factual historic event. In other words, I wouldn't trust OED to give an unbiased definition of "atheist".

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