Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corwin · 05-06-2002, 02:27 PM

Well you aren't missing a whole lot.

One point that does bear mentioning is that a lot of us, when we first discover nanotech, get all wrapped up in some fairly utopian ideals... some of which are quite workable. One common thread is completely eliminating money. This won't happen. It may EFFECTIVELY happen, but not entirely. 'Post scarcity' refers to common goods. Some elements, such as irridium, are simply going to remain scarce. Nanotech might open up new sources of various materials, such as gold... (with nanomaterials and engineering it would be easier to mine gold off of veins in the ocean floor, which are not currently accessable. This would make gold somewhat more common...) but it's still going to be more scarce than, say, carbon. Will most people have an issue with this? Not really. Most people have no want or need for irridium. I'd guess there will always be SOME form of currency, or means of exchange... but most people probably won't need it, or won't need much or need it very often.

daemon · 05-07-2002, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corwin:
Nanotech plays a critical role in this game and its predecessors, the System Shock games. (Same programmers, Eidos snagged them from Looking Glass when they went under.)

There's a very good reason for all of this, and it's something the nano-community has sort of seen a need for. Nanotech needs exposure. This is going to be a critically important technology that will change just about every aspect of human life eventually. People need to get used to the idea. Hence, exposure in popular media. (The former Looking Glass programmers that were responsible for System Shock 1 and 2 and were heavily involved in Deus Ex are all largely nanofreaks.

)

Corwin, you're not quite correct here--System Shock 2 was developed by Irrational Games, who have no common members with Looking Glass. Furthermore, there is no mention of nanotech in System Shock 1. It is true that Ion Storm (developer of Deus Ex) does have a large number of ex-LG people.

Corwin · 05-07-2002, 12:03 PM

<a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/content/warrens2" target="_blank">http://www.eurogamer.net/content/warrens2</a>

Discusses how Ion Storm's programmers are largely the remnants of Looking Glass' Austin office.

I never played SS1, so I'm not as familiar with it. It uses the same storyline and SS2 at least writes nanotech into the SS1 history. Possibly this is a bit of revisionist history on the part of the OSA... I dunno.

daemon · 05-07-2002, 12:34 PM

As I said, you were correct about Ion Storm Austin.

Quote:

Originally posted by Corwin:
I never played SS1, so I'm not as familiar with it. It uses the same storyline and SS2 at least writes nanotech into the SS1 history. Possibly this is a bit of revisionist history on the part of the OSA... I dunno.

I don't believe nanotech is ever mentioned in SS... it really didn't get into how the tech did what it did, but focussed more on the core concept of cyberhorror.

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: daemon ]

fando · 05-08-2002, 06:24 AM

I think Neal Stephenson came up with the best prediction of the nature of a Nanotechnological society in his excellent book, The Diamond Age.

Corwin · 05-08-2002, 07:39 AM

Actually I disagree.

Don't get me wrong, I love Stephenson (except for Cryptonomicon. I just never could get into that one...) but he missed. Nanotech is largely uncontrollable in the way he describes. This is part of what frightens people about it. You can't just pass a law and expect people to follow it... and the intense IP law he suggests? Please... while I have no doubt that media and other companies will try it, it'll last.... five minutes?

'HOLD IT RIGHT THERE!!!! You can't run that food creation program because it's not licensed and the company that owns the design of that meal hasn't been paid their licensing fees and we don't CARE if you're starving!!!' Yeah right. That'll happen.

fando · 05-08-2002, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corwin:
Actually I disagree.

Have a better prediction?

I do have issues with some of his predictions, but his amazing vision has provided a springboard for my own imaginings. Inspiration deserves credit and recommendation.

Corwin · 05-08-2002, 08:15 AM

Actually yes I do.

Day 1: A joint press conference from MIT and Berkeley announces the creation of the first molecular nanoassembler. The assembler is ordered to create 500 billion copies of itself. The resulting 500 billion nanites are stored in 10 1 liter jugs.

Day 3: In an unprecedented move, the United States Congress takes exactly 12 hours to write, 'debate' and pass a bill, this one banning all forms of molecular nanotechnology. There are strong suspiscions that the source of this bill was not so much the military and it's concerns about nanoweapons, but large corporate interests concerned about their bottom lines. Heavily shielded federal agents are sent to MIT to destroy the nanites, but in the process it is discovered that two of the containers and several of the researchers are missing. Investigation reveals that the missing researchers seem to be 'stuck in the 60's' and tend to be somewhat.... radical in their political and economic views.

Day 4: In a strongly precedented move, the american people calmly read about the new law in the morning newspapers, giggle to themselves, and head out to their driveways with a spray bottle. Federal agents in helicopters frantically call Washington DC reporting the huge numbers of Lamborghinis, Maseratis, and Mercedes-Benz's that have cropped up in various cities and frantically ask how they're supposed to arrest an entire neighborhood, much less an entire city?

fando · 05-08-2002, 09:23 AM

I predict hokey hygiene products advertised to wash away more nanojunk than the next!

fando · 05-08-2002, 09:26 AM

Where can I read about the problems in directed self-assembly? It doesn't make sense that a self-reproducing nanobot can store enough information to manufacture a Mercedes out of raw materials.

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05-06-2002, 02:27 PM	#31
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Well you aren't missing a whole lot. One point that does bear mentioning is that a lot of us, when we first discover nanotech, get all wrapped up in some fairly utopian ideals... some of which are quite workable. One common thread is completely eliminating money. This won't happen. It may EFFECTIVELY happen, but not entirely. 'Post scarcity' refers to common goods. Some elements, such as irridium, are simply going to remain scarce. Nanotech might open up new sources of various materials, such as gold... (with nanomaterials and engineering it would be easier to mine gold off of veins in the ocean floor, which are not currently accessable. This would make gold somewhat more common...) but it's still going to be more scarce than, say, carbon. Will most people have an issue with this? Not really. Most people have no want or need for irridium. I'd guess there will always be SOME form of currency, or means of exchange... but most people probably won't need it, or won't need much or need it very often.

05-07-2002, 12:03 PM	#33
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	<a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/content/warrens2" target="_blank">http://www.eurogamer.net/content/warrens2</a> Discusses how Ion Storm's programmers are largely the remnants of Looking Glass' Austin office. I never played SS1, so I'm not as familiar with it. It uses the same storyline and SS2 at least writes nanotech into the SS1 history. Possibly this is a bit of revisionist history on the part of the OSA... I dunno.

05-08-2002, 06:24 AM	#35
fando Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 1,372	I think Neal Stephenson came up with the best prediction of the nature of a Nanotechnological society in his excellent book, The Diamond Age.

05-08-2002, 07:39 AM	#36
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Actually I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I love Stephenson (except for Cryptonomicon. I just never could get into that one...) but he missed. Nanotech is largely uncontrollable in the way he describes. This is part of what frightens people about it. You can't just pass a law and expect people to follow it... and the intense IP law he suggests? Please... while I have no doubt that media and other companies will try it, it'll last.... five minutes? 'HOLD IT RIGHT THERE!!!! You can't run that food creation program because it's not licensed and the company that owns the design of that meal hasn't been paid their licensing fees and we don't CARE if you're starving!!!' Yeah right. That'll happen.

05-08-2002, 08:15 AM	#38
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Actually yes I do. Day 1: A joint press conference from MIT and Berkeley announces the creation of the first molecular nanoassembler. The assembler is ordered to create 500 billion copies of itself. The resulting 500 billion nanites are stored in 10 1 liter jugs. Day 3: In an unprecedented move, the United States Congress takes exactly 12 hours to write, 'debate' and pass a bill, this one banning all forms of molecular nanotechnology. There are strong suspiscions that the source of this bill was not so much the military and it's concerns about nanoweapons, but large corporate interests concerned about their bottom lines. Heavily shielded federal agents are sent to MIT to destroy the nanites, but in the process it is discovered that two of the containers and several of the researchers are missing. Investigation reveals that the missing researchers seem to be 'stuck in the 60's' and tend to be somewhat.... radical in their political and economic views. Day 4: In a strongly precedented move, the american people calmly read about the new law in the morning newspapers, giggle to themselves, and head out to their driveways with a spray bottle. Federal agents in helicopters frantically call Washington DC reporting the huge numbers of Lamborghinis, Maseratis, and Mercedes-Benz's that have cropped up in various cities and frantically ask how they're supposed to arrest an entire neighborhood, much less an entire city?

05-08-2002, 09:23 AM	#39
fando Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 1,372	I predict hokey hygiene products advertised to wash away more nanojunk than the next!

05-08-2002, 09:26 AM	#40
fando Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 1,372	Where can I read about the problems in directed self-assembly? It doesn't make sense that a self-reproducing nanobot can store enough information to manufacture a Mercedes out of raw materials.

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