lpetrich

Many Fundies believe that the Earth is only ~ 6000 years old.

missus_gumby

But his peers did ensure that he became the honcho in charge of the public understanding of science in the UK. And when unproven paranormal explanations are heralded as equally valid in his area of expertise, he is perfectly entitled to show them up for what they are.

Again, I will point out that the responses in the feedback section at Talkorigins are written by theists and non-theists. You seem to have ignored the fact.

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: missus_gumby ]</p>

Copernic

The question then becomes, I think;
Are there experts in evolutionary biology?
If yes, then any laymen refusing to be convinced of evolutionary theory becomes blinded by his own ignorance and should have no expectations that his contrarian beliefs should be taken seriously in the public forum.

Conversely I don't believe anyone thinks Dawkins and Dennett are experts on the nature of God and one would be unwise to consider their perspective as fact. They're just two sharp guys that ask the religous "experts" to better fortify their unsubstantiated claims or stop making positive claims as to the nature of science.

But as to the nature of a Xtian god, the so called religious experts (priests, shamen, rabbis, witchdoctors, brahmins, or the like) do not all agree. So it is unreasonable for laymen, like ourselves, to make absolute assertions based upon their preachings. Although we may come to alternate conclusions through the aid of other courses of thought(science, philosopy, logic, stamp collecting).

Regards J

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Copernic ]

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Copernic ]</p>

GeoTheo

You are missing my point. My point is:
If your goal is to further the understanding of Biology including evolution don't present it as a culture war. Rather point out that it is not a culture war but a question of understanding the world by the study of its physical and material properties.
If you do want a culture war (maybe you do) feel free to (mis)use the study of evolution to further your ends. But don't be shocked when the reaction is that people reject evolution in favor of their religion and that you end up causing less scientific knowledge in the population as a whole.

scigirl

I am in 100% agreement with you there.

Well that is indeed a good, but difficult question. My answer, although very very simplistic, is education. At all levels -we need to start teaching our kids about how to think critically, how to be open to new ideas yet maintain a degree of skepticism, etc, etc. But these things are hard to teach - it's much easier to force kids to memorize genus and species names.

scigirl

scigirl

Sure, it could be. However, policitians today are making decisions about the biological sciences, based on what the (perhaps ignorant) masses tell them to. Stem cell research, DNA evidence, health care reform, euthanasia, evolution in schools.

I think the reason I get so upset at the existence of creationists is that it's a symbol of a much larger scientific ignorance about a wide variety of issues. And these same people are sitting on juries, voting, and passing legislation. That's why I am bothered.

scigirl

GeoTheo

I would also like to add that I am not in favor of the teaching of creationism or ID as valid scientific theories in the public schools.
I just think when you pin people against a wall and say "Which is it God or evolution?"
It is neither disturbing or shocking that people will choose God. I just think it is a bad question and presents a false dicotomy.

ashibaka

Currently, it's being presented as ignorance vs. education (on the Talk.Origins site), which is basically true, or fundamentalists vs. science (on No Answers in Genesis!), which is sorta true.

Been to trueorigins.org recently?

Athanasius

Ignorance and a propensity towards rash speech grow on both sides of the fence. Here are just a couple of statements by evolutionists I quickly found in the feedback section at <a href="http://www.trueorigins.org" target="_blank">http://www.trueorigins.org</a>

I could probably find more. These things seem to be a common affliction of the human race found among adherants of every major belief system, and a sign that there is a lot of work to be done.

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Athanasius ]

{Edited to fix link - Scigirl}

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

pz

It is a culture war already, but not by the choice of the secularists. If Dawkins were crashing church services and telling people what they were supposed to believe, you'd have a case. That is not happening. Instead, the religious fundamentalists are the ones trying to force their beliefs on secular institutions. Please put the blame where it properly belongs.

Your complaints here were apparently prompted by something to which you object on the talk.origins feedback page. I have no idea what irked you, but I assure you (and I think it is quite evident in the responses) that the evolutionists there are far more courteous, civil, and respectful in their replies than many of the typical creationist comments we get. For instance, there is one in the queue that just came in that starts, "you fucking moron..." and goes rapidly downhill from there. Those kinds of comments don't deserve and rarely get a response.