Freethought & Rationalism Archive

brian · 04-08-2002, 11:59 PM

To write off religion just because there are devisive elements in it. If you fallow that line of reason what's left to belive in at all? There is devision in every part of our lives. Devision comes from man not god. The presence of devision doesn't negate the exsistence of god, but it certainly proves the exsistence of man.

MadMordigan · 04-09-2002, 02:15 AM

It's not as if the Bible has God declaring that the sun revolves around the earth.

Funny that is doesn't say the opposite though, isn't it?

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: MadMordigan ]

Typhon · 04-09-2002, 03:57 AM

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No, other than in a "poetic" fashion, even as we nowadays say, but do not literally mean, "The Sun will rise at 5:42 a.m.."

No more poetic than the whole nonsense about seven days and such. Already, you can see the backpedaling and explaining that is necessary to squeeze the narrowness of such an improbable and incoherent faith into the fullness of what we know about the world. Christianity is a religion created in the dark of the world, and it is no wonder that it performs poorly in the light of today.

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I believe the Jewish phrase used does not literally mean that they "chew their cud", but that it refers to some other gastronomic or such thing. I read a bit about it once, when reading up on supposed Bible contradictions, and the explanation was sufficient to show that there was no necessary contradiction, except perhaps in a faulty English translation.

Sufficient you mean, to assay your fears and the need to explore further. Face it, the Bible is horribly erroneous, not once, or twice, but over and over. It takes a huge stretch of reason to explain its many inconsistencies and fallacies away. However, that, is what "faith" is for I suppose.

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Yes, and there's plenty of scientific evidence to support that age for the Earth.

No. Flatly and demonstratively, there is not.

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Denying reality even for "moral support" is not a good thing. I'm glad that Christianity does no such thing.

I agree that denial of reality is indeed dangerous, which is why I do not believe in faerie tales like Christianity. Christianity denies a lot, and is not the most healthy of religions in any regard.

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Yes, that's why I eventually gave up believing in evolution. I was comforted to think that there was no God and could live as I preferred, but I eventually realized evolution is a delusion. I could not keep believing in it.

I highly doubt that, more likely you were uncomfortable with doing without the feel-good fantasy that is Christianity. Then again, most people don't understand evolution or appreciate the full value and comfort of a rational, non-theistic universe in the first place, sad.

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Not in my case, anyway. It's more like when I woke up, I realized what I had thought was a really great dream was actually a nightmare.

Yeah, and I have some great property to sell you in the West Bank.

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The evidence supporting the truth of the Bible is far greater than any which might in any sense be considered to support any of the "supernatural" claims of the Iliad or the "Volsunga" Saga. Unless one tests the claims, there is no real reason to reject anything, even the "Volsunga" (which, if it's one of those Norse/Celtic/Viking myths, I've already "tested" and rejected). What are your specific reasons for not believing the Bible?

Actually, historically it is far, far less. The evidence for the veracity of the Bible is not only sorely lacking, but we are able to show that many of its claims are both baseless and erroneous. In decades of trying, all the attempts to show any such evidence that I have ever witnessed, have produced only dismal failures.

.T.

Automaton · 04-09-2002, 04:57 AM

Douglas, here are some of the impact craters in the geologic record:
name - diameter - energy release from impact
Puchezh-Katunki - 80 km - 1200 megatons
Chicxulub - 170 to 240 km - 2550 to 3600 megatons
Manicouagan - 100 km - 1500 megatons
Sudbury - 250 km - 3750 megatons
Acraman - 90 km - 1350 megatons
Kara-Kul - 45 to 52 km - 675 to 780 megatons
Popigai - 100 km - 1500 megatons
Chesapeake Bay - 85 km - 1275 megatons
Vredefort - 140 to 300 km - 2100 to 4500 megatons
Beaverhead - 60 km - 900 megatons
Morokweng - 70 km - 1050 megatons
Woodleigh - 120 km - 1800 megatons

Are you saying all these (and thousands more) happened in the space of just over 4000 years? Don't you think anyone would have noticed them, and commented on it in the history books? I can assure you, blasts of this magnitude would be EXTREMELY noticable, for vast distances around. Just a little odd, don't you think?

Automaton · 04-09-2002, 05:08 AM

To put things in perspective, the Tunguska blast of 1908 was only around 15 megatons at the most, and it sent a shockwave around the earth twice, plus its effects were visible 10,000 km away, when the eerie glow in the sky allowed people to read newspapers on the streets of London at night.

Wyrdsmyth · 04-09-2002, 08:08 AM

You know the answer, Automaton. We all know how the reasoning goes:

(1) Since the Bible has to be right, as it's the infallible perfect Word of God --

(2) Anything that apparently contradicts the Bible must be incorrect. If the error isn't plainly visible, we have to look for it.

So, in your example of the impact craters, there has to be some explanation for how to reconcile them with the inarguable fact that earth is only 7000 years old. We just have to find the explanation.

Personally, I prefer the thesis that all geologists are under the influence of Satan.

Geology = Satanism.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]

Automaton · 04-09-2002, 06:20 PM

bump

Kassiana · 04-09-2002, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Free Thinkr:
I wish more theists would admit that's why they believe. With all the damning evidence against the bible, that's what it boils down to. "There must be something more!"

Okay. I believe because I want to. It makes me happy. I have a lot of fun believing what I do and doing what I do as a religious believer. Now, are you happy?

Wyrdsmyth · 04-09-2002, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kassiana:
Okay. I believe because I want to. It makes me happy. I have a lot of fun believing what I do and doing what I do as a religious believer. Now, are you happy?

I am. That's the most I really expect to hear from most theists!!! I think it's a big step to admit that.

bltl6 · 04-09-2002, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eric Yauger:
church that I went to, having over 5000 members (many of whom are college age),
Eric
[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Eric Yauger ]

Just wondering, not that it fully matters a this point, but dd you go to Harvest, or that Baptist church next to CBU?

04-09-2002, 02:15 AM	#32
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	It's not as if the Bible has God declaring that the sun revolves around the earth. Funny that is doesn't say the opposite though, isn't it? [ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: MadMordigan ]</p>

04-09-2002, 08:08 AM	#36
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	You know the answer, Automaton. We all know how the reasoning goes: (1) Since the Bible has to be right, as it's the infallible perfect Word of God -- (2) Anything that apparently contradicts the Bible must be incorrect. If the error isn't plainly visible, we have to look for it. So, in your example of the impact craters, there has to be some explanation for how to reconcile them with the inarguable fact that earth is only 7000 years old. We just have to find the explanation. Personally, I prefer the thesis that all geologists are under the influence of Satan. Geology = Satanism. [ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

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04-08-2002, 11:59 PM	#31
brian New Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: california Posts: 4	To write off religion just because there are devisive elements in it. If you fallow that line of reason what's left to belive in at all? There is devision in every part of our lives. Devision comes from man not god. The presence of devision doesn't negate the exsistence of god, but it certainly proves the exsistence of man.

04-09-2002, 04:57 AM	#34
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	Douglas, here are some of the impact craters in the geologic record: name - diameter - energy release from impact Puchezh-Katunki - 80 km - 1200 megatons Chicxulub - 170 to 240 km - 2550 to 3600 megatons Manicouagan - 100 km - 1500 megatons Sudbury - 250 km - 3750 megatons Acraman - 90 km - 1350 megatons Kara-Kul - 45 to 52 km - 675 to 780 megatons Popigai - 100 km - 1500 megatons Chesapeake Bay - 85 km - 1275 megatons Vredefort - 140 to 300 km - 2100 to 4500 megatons Beaverhead - 60 km - 900 megatons Morokweng - 70 km - 1050 megatons Woodleigh - 120 km - 1800 megatons Are you saying all these (and thousands more) happened in the space of just over 4000 years? Don't you think anyone would have noticed them, and commented on it in the history books? I can assure you, blasts of this magnitude would be EXTREMELY noticable, for vast distances around. Just a little odd, don't you think?

04-09-2002, 05:08 AM	#35
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	To put things in perspective, the Tunguska blast of 1908 was only around 15 megatons at the most, and it sent a shockwave around the earth twice, plus its effects were visible 10,000 km away, when the eerie glow in the sky allowed people to read newspapers on the streets of London at night.

04-09-2002, 06:20 PM	#37
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	bump

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