Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cheetah · 08-13-2003, 09:28 AM

This is from an NRO article, which I know does not automatically give it credit here. However, in reading it, though I found a lot of it to be opinions that things are better now, I thought it would be helpful to read an opinion on how great the war is and all the wonderful benefits to come of it. Here are a few I found particularly galling:

Quote:

Unless we are activating entirely new National Guard units or creating ex nihilo divisions, some percentage of our costs for troops is static and previously budgeted anyway � whether American soldiers are to be fed and housed in Texas or in Baghdad.

OK, as long as we are spending money on these guys, let's have them doing something productive, like overthrowing other countries preemptively, that way we get the most bang for our buck!

Quote:

3. The lack of tangible evidence of weapons of mass destruction undermines the success of the war � and gives powerful ammunition to the Democrats' criticism of Mr. Bush.

This would be true if there had not been ample reasons presented for going to war � from Saddam's violation of the 1991 accords, his expulsion of U.N. inspectors, his past history of invading and attacking his neighbors, his connection with terrorists, and prior confirmation by the U.N. and the Clinton administration of a continued Iraq WMD program.

Doesn't change the fact that imminent use of weapons of mass destruction were used as the primary reason to have this war. It's galling that conservatives even admit that that wasn't the REAL reason, but a sufficiently ugent sounding reason to go to war, when these other things were the real reasons, but not acceptable for war, but everyone will be happy after the war that they were accomplished.

Quote:

Careful scrutiny reveals just the opposite: the U.N., NATO, the EU, South Korea, and other bodies and nations are reexamining their own, not our, behavior.

REALLY? I hadn't heard. Somehow, I'm not convinced that the rest of the world is really trying to figure out how to be just like us now.

Bah, that's all I have the stomach for.

Ion · 08-13-2003, 10:16 AM

Regarding:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. The lack of tangible evidence of weapons of mass destruction undermines the success of the war � and gives powerful ammunition to the Democrats' criticism of Mr. Bush.
...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article 51 of the U.N. Chart allows individual states to act on their own without Security Council approval in case of self-defense only, which was not met by U.S. in Iraq:

"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security."

U.S., a signatory of the U.N. Chart, has not exercised "...this right of self-defense..." when it attacked Iraq based on lies (WMDs, September 11, al-Qaeda, and Niger links, 'liberation'), but U.S., a signatory of the U.N. Chart, sure it broke its signature of the U.N. Chart instead.

Happy Wonderer · 08-13-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Against the present cost of pacifying Iraq must be set a half-generation and the $20-30 billion already spent to secure two-thirds of the airspace of Iraq. Then there was the costly naval enforcement of the U.N. embargo from the Gulf to the Indian Ocean � as well as years of prior shootings and bombings along the way.

This guy would must be a used car salesman in real life. Taking his "30 billion already spent" at face value, that is a quarter of a billion a month since the end of GWI. According to the Pentagon, we have already spent 48 billion dollars and will spend almost four billion a month going forward. Such a deal! I mean some of those Humvees that are getting roasted every month would probably break down due to mechanical failure sometime anyway. And those Americans that are getting killed? Gosh, some of them would die anyway even if they were at home, the roads here are not safe you know.

The over 1000 wounded GIs? Well, we prefer not to talk about that.

And gee, lookee, the Iraq war is bringing peace to Israel. How the hell he makes that connection I do not get, given that there is a) no peace in Israel and b) it was US pressure on Sharon that reopened negotiations which haven't made any progress anyway.

Wow, it really helped the war on terror(tm) -- lookee, no 9/11 attacks since GWII. Isn't that amazing? It must be working!

This guy has the gall to bring up "the explusion of the inspectors" as a reason for the war. Um, as much as the conservatives like to rewrite history some of us till remember that the inspectors were still in Iraq and getting decent cooperation when the US decided to invade Checkoslovakia, er, Iraq. And not to revisit this again and again, but Saddam didn't kick the inspectors out in the first place.

Bah, indeed, I can't take more of it either.

hw

Happy Wonderer · 08-13-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Careful scrutiny reveals just the opposite: the U.N., NATO, the EU, South Korea, and other bodies and nations are reexamining their own, not our, behavior.

I thought that maybe you had a typo in your quote, Cheetah, but the article really does say "South Korea." It is true that there have been more anti-US protests in the south since GWII but I hardly think that goes on the positive side of the ledger. I think that the author meant North Korea. Gives me a lot of confidence in his understanding of international relationships (and the quality of editing at the NR.)

hw

ZiprHead · 08-13-2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Wonderer
And gee, lookee, the Iraq war is bringing peace to Israel. How the hell he makes that connection I do not get, given that there is a) no peace in Israel and b) it was US pressure on Sharon that reopened negotiations which haven't made any progress anyway.

The reason things are quieting down in Israel is because some of the people that were attacking Israel have moved to Iraq to attack Americans.

elwoodblues · 08-13-2003, 11:27 AM

Turned out? It's not done yet, and shows no sign of being done any time soon. We're still losing men almost every day, not to mention the monetary cost, which is vastly bigger than the White House estimated.

Rhaedas · 08-13-2003, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion
Article 51 of the U.N. Chart allows individual states to act on their own without Security Council approval in case of self-defense only, which was not met by U.S. in Iraq:

Sure it was...Iraq could have hypothetically been planning some massive large scale attack with possible weapons they were maybe planning in the future to create...or something. So we got them first, just in case...totally self-defense!

boneyard bill · 08-13-2003, 12:45 PM

Elwood Blues writes:

Quote:

Turned out? It's not done yet, and shows no sign of being done any time soon. We're still losing men almost every day, not to mention the monetary cost, which is vastly bigger than the White House estimated.

That's the really big omission in his article. We have no idea how this thing is going to develop. From my casual reading I have identified eight different factions operating in Iraq. Undoubtedly there are more. I'm far from being any expert on Iraqi internal affairs.

But there seem to be at least 3 different Shiite factions, two Kurd factions, the Sunnis, a faction connected to Al Qaeda, and the exile faction supported by our defense department. People who actually study Iraq could probably identiy quite a few more.

We're going to bring all these people together to live in harmony, peace, and democracy. I thought Bush said during the campaign that we didn't really know how to bring democracy to these countries.

Calzaer · 08-13-2003, 01:02 PM

I'm just waiting for the day when I read the paper and see that more American men and women have died in combat since the war has been "over" than died in the first Gulf War.

I hate Bush for putting our soldiers in this position.

Happy Wonderer · 08-13-2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZiprHead
The reason things are quieting down in Israel is because some of the people that were attacking Israel have moved to Iraq to attack Americans.

Irony? I have yet to see anybody come up with that as a serious argument but would be interested if someone did. You do realize that this hasn't been an especially quiet week in the Holy Land, I'm sure...

hw

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08-13-2003, 10:16 AM	#2
Ion Banned Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,817	Regarding: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. The lack of tangible evidence of weapons of mass destruction undermines the success of the war � and gives powerful ammunition to the Democrats' criticism of Mr. Bush. ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article 51 of the U.N. Chart allows individual states to act on their own without Security Council approval in case of self-defense only, which was not met by U.S. in Iraq: "Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security." U.S., a signatory of the U.N. Chart, has not exercised "...this right of self-defense..." when it attacked Iraq based on lies (WMDs, September 11, al-Qaeda, and Niger links, 'liberation'), but U.S., a signatory of the U.N. Chart, sure it broke its signature of the U.N. Chart instead.

08-13-2003, 11:27 AM	#6
elwoodblues Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Dunmanifestin, Discworld Posts: 4,836	Turned out? It's not done yet, and shows no sign of being done any time soon. We're still losing men almost every day, not to mention the monetary cost, which is vastly bigger than the White House estimated.

08-13-2003, 01:02 PM	#9
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	I'm just waiting for the day when I read the paper and see that more American men and women have died in combat since the war has been "over" than died in the first Gulf War. I hate Bush for putting our soldiers in this position.

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