Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Daggah · 03-01-2003, 02:45 PM

Haven't we already been over this? All you can say without making yourself seem like a self-centered know-it-all is say I believe sin exists, because it requires a God I believe in.

Until you become omniscient, you can't make the claim there is a God. So kindly stop making illogical statements, especially in reguards to all theists - since many theists agree you can't say there is a God, only that you believe in him.

To say there is a God is illogical because you don't know everything. In fact humans barely know anything at all ( 1 millionth of 1 percent to be more precise).

(I believe that sums it up.)

In all of your posts in which you explained what you believed (or tried to), how many of them started with "I believe..."?

I don't recall many. So check yourself before you get on my case about this.

(For the record, I am an agnostic atheist.)

Yellum Notnef · 03-01-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Haven't we already been over this? All you can say without making yourself seem like a self-centered know-it-all is say I don't believe sin exists, because it requires a God i don't believe in.

Until you become omniscient, you can't make the claim there is no God. So kindly stop making illogical statements, especially in reguards to all atheists - since many atheists agree you can't say there is no God, only that you don't believe in him.

To say there is no God is illogical because you don't know everything. In fact humans barely know anything at all ( 1 millionth of 1 percent to be more precise).

You`re not the brightest bulb in the chandelier are you?

Sin is baggage associated with the Christian god. A person does not have to be a self-centered know-it-all or omniscient to know that the Christian god does not exist.

Might there be a REAL god out there somewhere that we don`t know about? Perhaps. Might this god use a system that involves sin? Perhaps.
But we are not talking about some unknown god here,we are talking specifically about the Christian god. And this god does not exist so we have no reason to assume that sin does either.

Produce evidence for a real god that uses a system involving sin and we`ll talk. Right now theres nothing to talk about.

<<<<I just checked above and it looks like Daggah beat me to it>>>>

Bumble Bee Tuna · 03-01-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
I never said you didn't answer them, did I? I said you answered them pretty well in fact. I was probably making a general statement in a post you decided was meant for you alone. You also took an assertion about general hypocrisy as a personal remark. There is considerable evidence you thought my time and posts should be for your benefit alone and that any general statement was some how an attack on you. I said you answered them pretty well in fact.

Well, it was in a section of your post called "Re: BBT" and right after a quote of mine, so yes I think you were talking to me personally, though you can certainly try to backpedal and claim that's not the case. I decided the lower half of your post, entitled "Re: BBT" and containing quotes from my post, was for me alone (for obvious reasons). I ignored the top half. It's an interesting tactic you have, though, when shown to be wrong about someone. "Oh, well even though that was in the section that was to that particular person, it was secretly to a different person! I just didn't bother telling you guys."

Quote:

In any case your assertion was simply a lie, which you are now trying to paint a better face on instead of apologizing as you ought to. Try this theory: You are easily offended and can't bear to look at your own stuff. I'm not calling you a liar BTW so don't start feeling persecuted.

It was not a lie. It was an exaggeration. Technically, you responded, but it was worthless so it was equivalent to not responding. Simple point, this marks the third time I've made it. It's kind of like if I call you an asshole I do not think you are literally an anus.

Magus- Not to get off on a tangent about weak vs. strong atheism, but "there is no God" is perfectly reasonable. Just as reasonable as "there are no invisible leprechauns flying around my head".

BTW where'd "1 millionth of 1 percent" come from? How was that calculated?

EDIT: Radorth, looking at my post, would you think the above few lines were directed to anyone but Magus?

-B

Magus55 · 03-01-2003, 02:54 PM

I say i believe without a doubt God exists, never did i say i know with 100% fact that there is a God because i don't know everything.

You said there is no God.

And by that statement, how can you be agnostic? Agnostic means you don't know enough to determine whether God exists or not ( i.e neutral - you aren't sure - you have no belief either way). Atheist is - i believe there is no God, or i don't believe God exists.

You can't be both because its contradictory. And you can't say there is no God, and be agnostic.

Magus55 · 03-01-2003, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
You`re not the brightest bulb in the chandelier are you?

Sin is baggage associated with the Christian god. A person does not have to be a self-centered know-it-all or omniscient to know that the Christian god does not exist.

Might there be a REAL god out there somewhere that we don`t know about? Perhaps. Might this god use a system that involves sin? Perhaps.
But we are not talking about some unknown god here,we are talking specifically about the Christian god. And this god does not exist so we have no reason to assume that sin does either.

Produce evidence for a real god that uses a sytem involving sin and we`ll talk. Right now theres nothing to talk about.

<<<<I just checked above and it looks like Daggah beat me to it>>>>

How do you know the Christian God doesn't exist? Again we come to the same illogical premise. Without knowing everything, you can't know whether the christian God exists - so whats the difference? Just because the evidence isn't enough for you to believe the Christian God exists doesn't mean He doesn't.

Magus55 · 03-01-2003, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
Well, it was in a section of your post called "Re: BBT" and right after a quote of mine, so yes I think you were talking to me personally, though you can certainly try to backpedal and claim that's not the case. I decided the lower half of your post, entitled "Re: BBT" and containing quotes from my post, was for me alone (for obvious reasons). I ignored the top half. It's an interesting tactic you have, though, when shown to be wrong about someone. "Oh, well even though that was in the section that was to that particular person, it was secretly to a different person! I just didn't bother telling you guys."

It was not a lie. It was an exaggeration. Technically, you responded, but it was worthless so it was equivalent to not responding. Simple point, this marks the third time I've made it. It's kind of like if I call you an asshole I do not think you are literally an anus.

Magus- Not to get off on a tangent about weak vs. strong atheism, but "there is no God" is perfectly reasonable. Just as reasonable as "there are no invisible leprechauns flying around my head".

BTW where'd "1 millionth of 1 percent" come from? How was that calculated?

EDIT: Radorth, looking at my post, would you think the above few lines were directed to anyone but Magus?

-B

No i believe there is no God is reasonable - there is no God isn't. Its faulty logic. I believe there are no invisble leprechauns flying around my head is reasonable - there are none isn't because you don't for 100% sure that they aren't.

Forget where i got that 1 millionth of 1 percent thing, came from some famous scientist ( maybe edison or einstein or something).
I'm not a scientist, no clue how they calculated that. How did Newton design Calculus? no freakin clue.

MrDarwin · 03-01-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daggah
Atheists and everyone else are sinless, because sin requires god, and there is no god. There's no such thing as sin.

On the other hand, I don't think anybody here has claimed to be perfect, infallible, or without flaws, either. So what's your point? We are entirely in agreement with the Christian assertion that humans are both imperfect and fallible. But we then wonder out loud, if God made us that way, why he/she/it would punish us for that fact. It simply doesn't make sense.

Yellum Notnef · 03-01-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
How do you know the Christian God doesn't exist? Again we come to the same illogical premise. Without knowing everything, you can't know whether the christian God exists - so whats the difference? Just because the evidence isn't enough for you to believe the Christian God exists doesn't mean He doesn't.

I can`t prove that the Christian god doesn`t exist,but you can`t prove that it does.
Fine. Have it your way,but tell your buddy Radorth to stop asserting that we are all sinful until you can produce proof that your god exists.

Magus55 · 03-01-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrDarwin
On the other hand, I don't think anybody here has claimed to be perfect, infallible, or without flaws, either. So what's your point? We are entirely in agreement with the Christian assertion that humans are both imperfect and fallible. But we then wonder out loud, if God made us that way, why he/she/it would punish us for that fact. It simply doesn't make sense.

It does make sense. God didn't create us infallible, he created us perfect from the beginning. But he also gave us the ability to make choices ( wth would be the point of creating something to have fellowship with you if they are mindless robots?). By our own ability to make choices of whether to follow God or not, we chose not to - which made us fall and we lost our state of infallibility.

Your parents created you. If you grow up and hate them, rebell and go against all their rules - does that mean they gave birth to you as a faulty, rebellious child? No - you had the choice to disobey your parents. Doesn't mean they failed raising you or gave birth to an evil child.

Radorth · 03-01-2003, 05:47 PM

Oh I get it now. I did respond, but you disagreed, therefore my responses were worthless and so technically I didn't respond at all. You might have said something at the first sign my responses were "worthless." We could have saved a lot of bandwidth. Nice acting job though. You seemed quite sincere. Am I naive or what?

I found out what you were talking about earlier. I was asking what your conscience told you you could do and it would be God's will. You were about to argue that sex without any real commitment is OK because your conscience says so, I guess. I didn't respond because it was off-topic and destined to become a can of worms which I have no time for.

Your assertion that I did "not respond to anything" is based on my failure to engage in a conversation about the validity of your sex life? Or was it just an exaggeration by you? Or is it that "all" my responses were worthless? I'm a bit confused. You appear to be grasping at any excuse to justify your sin. I understand. It's a rather common practice by non-Christians and legalists who have no other hope.

I'll let the readers decide if I "didn't respond to anything" or pick which of your excuses they like best.

Criminy.

Rad

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03-01-2003, 02:45 PM	#141
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	Haven't we already been over this? All you can say without making yourself seem like a self-centered know-it-all is say I believe sin exists, because it requires a God I believe in. Until you become omniscient, you can't make the claim there is a God. So kindly stop making illogical statements, especially in reguards to all theists - since many theists agree you can't say there is a God, only that you believe in him. To say there is a God is illogical because you don't know everything. In fact humans barely know anything at all ( 1 millionth of 1 percent to be more precise). (I believe that sums it up.) In all of your posts in which you explained what you believed (or tried to), how many of them started with "I believe..."? I don't recall many. So check yourself before you get on my case about this. (For the record, I am an agnostic atheist.)

03-01-2003, 02:54 PM	#144
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	I say i believe without a doubt God exists, never did i say i know with 100% fact that there is a God because i don't know everything. You said there is no God. And by that statement, how can you be agnostic? Agnostic means you don't know enough to determine whether God exists or not ( i.e neutral - you aren't sure - you have no belief either way). Atheist is - i believe there is no God, or i don't believe God exists. You can't be both because its contradictory. And you can't say there is no God, and be agnostic.

03-01-2003, 05:47 PM	#150
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	Oh I get it now. I did respond, but you disagreed, therefore my responses were worthless and so technically I didn't respond at all. You might have said something at the first sign my responses were "worthless." We could have saved a lot of bandwidth. Nice acting job though. You seemed quite sincere. Am I naive or what? I found out what you were talking about earlier. I was asking what your conscience told you you could do and it would be God's will. You were about to argue that sex without any real commitment is OK because your conscience says so, I guess. I didn't respond because it was off-topic and destined to become a can of worms which I have no time for. Your assertion that I did "not respond to anything" is based on my failure to engage in a conversation about the validity of your sex life? Or was it just an exaggeration by you? Or is it that "all" my responses were worthless? I'm a bit confused. You appear to be grasping at any excuse to justify your sin. I understand. It's a rather common practice by non-Christians and legalists who have no other hope. I'll let the readers decide if I "didn't respond to anything" or pick which of your excuses they like best. Criminy. Rad

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