Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Llyricist · 11-20-2002, 07:25 AM

Keith,

While correct that atheism is not necessarily a religion, it is not correct to say that a religion cannot include atheism. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god or gods. A non theistic religion is by definition atheistic.

In other words you have expanded the definition of atheist beyond the dictionary definition and shrunk the defintion of religion to exclude this one:

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

The two are NOT mutually exclusive. In fact if you persue your atheism with zeal or conscientious devotion, you have made Atheism your religion!!

That being said I still agree with Aquila ka Hecate that the OP is a wonderful irony

Humble Heathen · 11-20-2002, 01:19 PM

Quote:

If there were ghosts and miracles and gods, I would not consider them supernatural, but rather part of nature.

Very true! Nature should not be defined as merely the way things seem, to us, to be but rather the way things are. Some things may seem supernatural to us, but they are not. We call things we have no scientific understanding of "supernatural", as if we already know everything about our world and anything seemingly new must be from outside it. Typical human arrogance.

Keith Russell · 11-21-2002, 10:50 AM

Lyricist:

Your definition of 'religion', (#4, above) could include football as being among the world's religions.

To say that any activity that one pursues with zeal is a religion, is a metaphorical grammatical device. To have meaning, one has to first know what a 'religion' is, and one must know that football is not really a religion.

Otherwise, anything could be a relgion, and there would be no reason to point that out.

Keith.

Fiach · 11-21-2002, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell:
Greetings:

Atheism is not a religion. Religions are systems of specific types of beliefs, mainly mystical/spiritual.

Atheism is a lack of such beliefs; atheism could thus be called the lack of religion.

Fiach: I agree so far.

All religions believe in a supernatural 'higher power', generally undefined, even though this 'higher power' may or may not be a 'God', 'god', or 'gods'.

Fiach: I am not so sure about this. Some religions apparently can do quite well without a god. In my opinion Marxism-Leninism was a religion with a creed, ritual, and icons. Yet it did not endorse a god.

Atheism rejects the belief in a mystical/spiritual/supernatural 'higher power', so atheism, again, is not a religion.

Fiach: No, Atheism does not REJECT a God. It simply says that one does not believe that such a thing exists. It is the lack of belief in Gods of any kind.

Theistic religions beleive that one can 'pray' to 'God', or to the 'gods', and this prayer will mystically (magically) bring about favourable (or desired) changes in reality.

Fiach: Aye.

Non-theistic religions almost always have some equivalent, they advocate belief in some means of altering reality via mental states, in the present or the future, in order to bring about desired events.

Fiach: Perhaps.

I have yet to meet an atheist who believes in 'prayer', or any other mystical, spiritual, or supernatural means of interacting with reality.

Fiach: Prayer has no mystical or spiritual effects. There is no supernatural anything. Everything that exists is natural otherwise it doesn't exist. Prayer helps only psychologically in some people who believe that it helps. In some sick people there may be benefits in a psychological mechanism of improving recovery, treating depression, or countering drug/alcohol addition. It probably replaces drug addiction with religious addiction. Which one is more harmful may be debatable.

If one wishes to call atheism a religion, one must first remove all of the relevant characteristics from the meaning of the word 'religion', in order to include 'atheism' as part of the definition of that concept.

Fiach: I probably agree. It is just that I think the issue is very simple. Atheism is just the absense of belief in God. One can be atheistic and also have a religion but the religion is not based on any lack of belief in Gods or Leprechauns.

Keith.

I think we agree but phrase it differently.

Fiach

Llyricist · 11-21-2002, 07:33 PM

Quote:

By Keith:
Your definition of 'religion', (#4, above) could include football as being among the world's religions.

It's not MY definition, it was copied and pasted from the dictionary.

And frankly, I see no reason NOT to regard football as SOME people's religion (or more probably, ONE of their religions), and I am quite sure there are a few people that would affirm it as such (especially if that definition was pointed out to them

).

Are you saying that unless X million people follow a particular kind of belief that YOU define, it can't be considered a religion?

Quote:

To say that any activity that one pursues with zeal is a religion, is a metaphorical grammatical device.

Call Webster and tell THEM that.

Quote:

To have meaning, one has to first know what a 'religion' is, and one must know that football is not really a religion.

[sarcasm] I guess looking in the dictionary is not a valid way to determine meaning then, thank you, from now on I will come to you instead.[/sarcasm]

Quote:

Otherwise, anything could be a relgion, and there would be no reason to point that out.

Well it seems to me that any cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion CAN be considered a religion, so there really wasn't any reason for you to point that out.

(edited twice for spelling)
[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Llyricist ]

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Llyricist ]

Starboy · 11-21-2002, 08:00 PM

IMO atheism is no more a religion or a philosophy than the color blue. It is a statement of condition. The condition of being without theism. That is all it is. It is not a replacement for anything, it is a starting point for creating an ethos that is new and possibly very different from anything that has come before.

Starboy

Frivolous · 11-22-2002, 07:57 PM

Atheism is not a religion because they have no faith...

Keith Russell · 11-23-2002, 12:47 PM

Lyricist:

You should have been told this in school.
The dictionary does not give the actual meaning of words. It only gives you the meaning of the word as it is commonly used. This is why so many words have several meanings; because a word has been used differently over time, location, different groups of people, etc.

We need to define our terms, so that others will know to which concept our own use of a given word actually refers.

If anything that one follows with zeal and pssion can be rightly called 'religion', we would still need to differentiate between the conceptual principle inherent in Catholicism and Buddhism, but which is not found in football.

Saying that football and Hinduism are both 'religions', is to ignore the fact that these two things do not share an essential characteristic.

Keith.

Jobar · 11-23-2002, 02:20 PM

As can be seen from this discussion, defining 'religion' is almost as difficult as defining 'god'. I'll take a stab at it here, knowing my definition has holes in it- point them out, and see if you can plug them, or make a better definition.

Religion is the conceptual system a person uses to attempt to organize all internal and external experience.

By this definition, science is a religion. Atheism, however, is not; it only addresses the idea of god(s). Atheism is only one facet of one area of philosophy.

crocodile deathroll · 11-23-2002, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Demosthenes:
Um, one simple sentence

Atheism is not a religion.

Atheists come from all walks of life, the only thing they agree on is there's no such a thing as a supernatural deity supervising the daily running of the universe.

Yes you are right, religion denotes a belief in a structured set of belief systems which worships a deity or deities and Atheism does not fit the bill. At best Atheism may apply to one of the <a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?search=religion" target="_blank"> lesser definitions </a> 3 or 4, certainly not 1 and 2 in this case

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

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11-20-2002, 07:25 AM	#11
Llyricist Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Lauderale, FL Posts: 5,390	Keith, While correct that atheism is not necessarily a religion, it is not correct to say that a religion cannot include atheism. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god or gods. A non theistic religion is by definition atheistic. In other words you have expanded the definition of atheist beyond the dictionary definition and shrunk the defintion of religion to exclude this one: 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. The two are NOT mutually exclusive. In fact if you persue your atheism with zeal or conscientious devotion, you have made Atheism your religion!! That being said I still agree with Aquila ka Hecate that the OP is a wonderful irony

11-21-2002, 10:50 AM	#13
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Lyricist: Your definition of 'religion', (#4, above) could include football as being among the world's religions. To say that any activity that one pursues with zeal is a religion, is a metaphorical grammatical device. To have meaning, one has to first know what a 'religion' is, and one must know that football is not really a religion. Otherwise, anything could be a relgion, and there would be no reason to point that out. Keith.

11-21-2002, 08:00 PM	#16
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	IMO atheism is no more a religion or a philosophy than the color blue. It is a statement of condition. The condition of being without theism. That is all it is. It is not a replacement for anything, it is a starting point for creating an ethos that is new and possibly very different from anything that has come before. Starboy

11-22-2002, 07:57 PM	#17
Frivolous Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 101	Atheism is not a religion because they have no faith...

11-23-2002, 12:47 PM	#18
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Lyricist: You should have been told this in school. The dictionary does not give the actual meaning of words. It only gives you the meaning of the word as it is commonly used. This is why so many words have several meanings; because a word has been used differently over time, location, different groups of people, etc. We need to define our terms, so that others will know to which concept our own use of a given word actually refers. If anything that one follows with zeal and pssion can be rightly called 'religion', we would still need to differentiate between the conceptual principle inherent in Catholicism and Buddhism, but which is not found in football. Saying that football and Hinduism are both 'religions', is to ignore the fact that these two things do not share an essential characteristic. Keith.

11-23-2002, 02:20 PM	#19
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	As can be seen from this discussion, defining 'religion' is almost as difficult as defining 'god'. I'll take a stab at it here, knowing my definition has holes in it- point them out, and see if you can plug them, or make a better definition. Religion is the conceptual system a person uses to attempt to organize all internal and external experience. By this definition, science is a religion. Atheism, however, is not; it only addresses the idea of god(s). Atheism is only one facet of one area of philosophy.

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