Echo

I'm not sure I understand this concept of prayer any better- at least not with respect to the omniscient god of Christian theology. I can better understand the idea of engaging in dialogue with the kind of non-omniscient god of Process Theology, for example. By engaging in a dialogue with this type of god, you would actually be capable of revealing something to him, of surprising him, of sharing some hidden part of yourself with him, like you might with a best friend. But it just doesn't make sense to try to share anything with a god who not only knows everything you are thinking or feeling, but already knows everything you will ever think or feel, and has always known everything you would ever think or feel.

RyanS2

Prayer is, by definition, "an attempt by an enfeebled race to communicate with a creator that is beyond their scope of comprehension, to whom the best works of this race are as 'rags' to him".

That's kind of strange to me as well. Why would a God want worship from a race of beings to whom the best works and creations are as filthy rags, I believe is the correct translation, and to whom he has tried to completely annihilate on many occasions? (After the flood, God wanted to start again with Moses, but Moses talked him out of it.) Which again, is another contradiction. How can God be omniscient and omnipotent, yet a guy can talk him out of genocide? Basically equating God to wanting humans to worship him is tantamount to me saying: "Maggots are disgusting and despicable creatures. Don't know why I created them. Oh yes, but I want them worshipping me 24-7, and they will worship no other humans but me! And if they do not worship me, the rocks from the ground shall cry out my name, and if they worship other humans beside me, then I'll bring forth a mighty can of RAID up against them!"

sullster

I know of evil prayers. I have fundy inlaws who tell us that they pray for us. They certainly don't pray for our well-being but they pray that we convert to their religion. What obnoxious prayer that is.

I hate it when I am at some function and a clergyman says the old line,"Let us pray". Everyone bows their heads, but I don't. It is a good thing there are no religious police around, I would have been burned at the stake long ago.

In general, I think prayer is verbalized wishful thinking. I know of many theists who pray for the most mundane things to occur. They pray for a sunny day or pray that their kid catches a fish when they go to a lake fishing. It always amazes me to see people asking the creator of the universe to do some dumass thing just for them. Incredible.
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Clarice

I think Heleilu was referring to prayer as an example of magical thinking, wherein the praying person is treating God more as a manipulable cosmic force, which can be bent to the petitioner's will through proper symbolic actions and language. (See <a href="http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/alternative.html" target="_blank">http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/alternative.html</a> for a review of magical thinking.)

While logic is selectively applied to prop up Christianity, many of Christianity's main tenets require abandonment of reason, such as the Trinity, the efficacy of substitutive sacrifice (which in itself seems to be magical thinking), the omnimax god who created evil, etc.

Magical thinking in general seems to be illogical, or at least unscientific. When the desired results are not obtained, there is always an explanation that makes the results fit into the magical framework, rather than an examination of whether the framework is faulty.

[edited for speeling]

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Clarice ]</p>

ManM

Echo,
You are right to say that sharing a hidden part of yourself is silly if God is omnipotent. Yet, prayer is not a matter of you revealing something to God. Instead, it is the conduit for God to reveal Himself in you. Through prayer we open ourselves up to the touch of the divine.

Kachana

So would you agree that when people pray in the following requestlike manner: 'Oh Lord, give my friend strength so that she may cope with her troubles', or 'Jesus, in your name I ask that aid reach the starving in Afghanistan', that such prayers have no bearing on whether God will or will not see those ends through, and are moreover at best selfish, at worst evil, in that they hope to elevate a personal desire (ignorant of objective good) to the status of divine decree?

Queen of Swords

"And all things, whatever you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:22).

ManM

Kachana, prayers such as those are not necessarily selfish. A true petition is an expression of faith, hope, and love. As such I think it would be wrong to discourage it. However, all such petitions must be tempered with those immortal words, "Thy will be done". This is the submission to God's judgement and the trust that whatever happens is for the best. Also, intercessory prayers may indeed have an effect if the "objective good" includes your praying.

And so, prayer may indeed have a bearing on an outcome. It is not necessarily selfish (although I admit much of the praying today appears selfish), and as an expression of love I do not think it should be discouraged. Basically, the bad form of prayer you have outlined need not be the way we pray.

sullster

After reading this quote from the buybull, I now realize that my relative, who prayed for his kid to catch a fish,was just doing what the book says. I guess the creator of the Universe does have the time to help a kid catch a fish, if they believe of course. It sure is strange.

Shake

Anytime I hear something like this about prayer, I am reminded of an incident a few years ago while stationed in Charleston, SC.: A big hurricane was headed our way, due to hit within a day or two. Sunday afternoon while gathering some last minute supplies, I heard on the radio that the storm had turned north earlier in the day. We were spared the brunt of the storm and just caught some heavy, but not brutal, t-storms.

Flash ahead a week or two. I'm reading the editorials when I stumble across one talking about the storm. The woman says something to the effect of, "The storm suddenly turned north around 10am on Sunday. Where were most people [in the area] then? In church." She inferred that the power of prayer locally was able to divert the storm ... which by the way, then went and clobbered the Wilmington, NC area. AGAIN!

After reading this letter aloud to my wife, she says, "I guess the people in Wilmington weren't praying hard enough!"
I nearly fell off the couch laughing!