Ab_Normal

frostymama, your story could be mine, except I didn't get pregnant that early.

Glory

That is a lovely image. Why are these two people married? How do they support each other? What are their obligations to each other? Lets try quantifying marraige. I have done so. I am curious to hear what you think marraige really is outside of vagueries about sharing a road.

Romance is wonderful. Romanticising is dangerous.
Marraige is about sharing. It's about sharing responsibilities and time and things and moneyand your bed. If you don't want to have sex that is utterly up to you. I am recomending that you don't get married, though, if that is your choice.



I think you are forgetting one thing. Everyone has at one time been a virgin. I remember how it felt to be a virgin. You have no idea how it feels to be in a sexual relationship.

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

Glory

No, it doesn't. It does preclude them from knowing what a sexual is like or what sex's effect on marraige is until they have given up chastity.



No. Very often they don't. It isn't like eating a meal or getting enough sleep. There is no way to accurately estimate how often and when you are gonna want it. Adding to the uncertainty is the fact that desire waxes and wanes. Also, most people don't want their spouse to simply agree to sex. Enthusiasm cannot be over rated. There is no formula for determining how often a certain couple should plan to have sex. It just doesn't work that way.



What about hers? What if your libido rises to the occasion, so to speak, and you want sex more often than you thought? What if the kids being born doesn't have an effect on your libido but it has an effect on hers?

Not everything is predictable. In fact, very little is predictable. There are alot of variables in this equation.



As I said to ManM, everyone was a virgin at one time. Single people go through dry spells as well. Do you think that once one has decided not to wait until the honeymoon it's a sexual buffet every night? One of the reasons people want to get married is that they want to have good sex regularly. Sexually active people can live without sex too.



Yup all us harlots only care about getting to the next orgasm. Make me cum or get out! Is the reason you want a virgin wife because you are scared of being inadequate? People learn for heavens sake. My husband was a virgin when we got together. We built a strong sex life over time. He learned and I learned. Better yet, we are still learning. That's how sex stays fresh over time.

Premarrital sex is not for everyone. Neither is waiting. Each person and each couple must make a decision for themselves. What I object to is the notion that a third party should have any bearing on the decision. To tell a man that he is in effect using a woman by having sex with her out of wedlock is insulting to everyone. To tell a woman that she must not have sex because her future husband deserves to marry a virgin is likewise insulting to everyone. Blaming the break up of a marraige on premarrital sex is a great way to avoid seeing what the real problems were.

Glory

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

luvluv

I don't really see how that would be possible .

You are assuming, Glory, that because I have never been married before that I have never been in a sexual relationship before. I can handle someone not wanting to have sex as much as I do. I think that what ManM, as well as myself have been trying to tell you is that we are willing to go with what our partners desire, no matter how often or unoften that is, so long as we are physically capable.

Heck, I'm not getting ANY sex now, so once a week sounds like a heck of a deal. Plus if the lady is intelligent and has a good sense of humour and is someone I can talk to easily and if she just LOVES to cook... I can think of worse things.

You've excluded things like friendship, commitment, intimacy, laughter, children, and all the rest of it from the discussion. I'm sure that is not what your marriage is really like, but that's the argument you've presented us with.

And I stand by my statement that not just for women but for ANYONE, to go from regular GREAT sex to bad sex will be a culture shock and will cause it's OWN problems. I just mentioned women because for us guys, even terrible sex ends in an orgasm (barring unforseen injury, of course).

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

Perchance

I have to answer this in a kind of schizophrenic way, I suppose. (And no, I'm not married, but I find the question interesting).

I see nothing wrong with pre-marital sex as long as people are aware of the consequences. For example, if one partner has a sexual disease, the other partner should know about it. Protection from pregnancy should be used. And so on. I knew two girls in high school who got pregnant and complained it was the "guys' fault." How? Apparently the guys were using birth control and hadn't coerced the girls. People who go into a pre-marital relationship aware of the consequences, don't take proper precautions, and then whine about them are the kind of people who probably should have waited.

The flip side of the question is that while I think it's perfectly fine for the people who can stand it to have pre-marital sex, I can't imagine having it myself- and I am an atheist who didn't have religious conditioning of any kind. I can only imagine I picked it up from the general culture. I'm still a virgin now, and can't imagine getting married or having sex. It might be the result of a low sex drive, or just one of the apparently innumerable "problems with intimacy." I can't remember having any physical attraction to another person, I don't like being in close contact with people for too long (either in crowds or with people I know), and I hunch up and move away almost involuntarily when someone touches me without warning (again, even people I know). I don't have any maternal instinct that I've ever discovered, either, so it doesn't seem as though I'll have to worry about wanting to procreate.

Perhaps it is just nature's way of stripping the gene pool of people who shouldn't be procreating, for whatever reason.

-Perchance.

livius drusus

This thread is about pre-marital sex and its effects on marriage, hence Glory's focus on the sexual aspects of marriage. In no way does she even begin to reduce her full and deeply loving relationship to sexual mechanics. As for your 'deep pockets' comment, unless it's an oblique reference to Sentinel's large and (clearly intimidating to some men) phallus, I have no idea where you got that.

I am frankly disgusted by your inferals, even though you've couched them in conditionals and your customary good cheer. Vibrator with deep pockets indeed.

Nice. So. In your world, it's perfectly fine for a husband to take his own sweet time fumbling around with his low-expectations nubile bride. I wonder if your attitude would be quite so cavalier if it took her 3 or 4 or 5 or a half dozen years to bring you to orgasm. Her virginity makes the callous disregard for her pleasure far, far worse imo, not better.

How can you even say there's no problem in the marriage if she doesn't know what she's missing? As long as he gets off and she doesn't have the experience to make some demands, everything's just peachy, is that it? I mean, crack a book. Rent a video. Talk to someone who is at least marginally familiar with the clitoris. If that's your definition of committment and intimacy, forgive me if I go for the human vibrator. At least it makes an effort.

ManM

Glory,
I was not trying to be that vague. I think marriage quite literally is two people committing to stick together through life and support each other in every way they can. There is no way I could exhaustively list every single means of support. I suppose a short list would include time, resources, stability in the midst of change, physical intimacy, shared goals, shared recreation, and most importantly, the certainty that comes from commitment (although this is fading fast). Still, no list could adequately capture every nuance of two lovers.

Let me repeat myself: I do not think that sex is evil. I do not want things on the puritanical extreme any more than I want them on the hedonistic extreme. Food is a good thing, but eating improper amounts or eating at the wrong time can lead to problems. I look at sex the same way.

Again, there are analogous arguments which are less then flattering. "Everyone has at one time been sober. I remember how it felt to be sober. You have no idea how it feels to be high." Do we limit discussions about drugs to people who have had experience using them? You have been a virgin, but you have not had my experiences. It is from those experiences that I speak, just as you speak from your experiences. From all that has been said in this topic, I count myself lucky to have known a love that did not require sex.

Viti

Married 11 years...cohabitated for a year (we were engaged. Shacking up with whoever I happened to be fucking did not appeal to me)...um fairly extensive sexual experience for both of us prior. The most mind blowing sex I have had is with my husband because over the years we have learned EXACTLY what each other likes and have been open to try new things and explore/fulfill each other's fantasies. Libidos wax and wane...sometimes it's a couple times a day, sometimes it's once a month, sometimes he is in high sex drive mode and I'm not, sometimes vice versa.

I am glad I had past experiences because it taught me more about my own likes/dislikes and taught me some some sure fire ways to please most guys (yes, a bad blow job is better than none...but most guys turn to goo and are amazingly grateful if you give good head)

galiel

I think people have the fundamental right to do whatever the fuck (pun intended) they want to do in the privacy of their bedrooms and neither moral nazis nor the state have any right to pass judgement on it.

You want to be celebate until you die, that is your right. You want your life to be a never-ending orgasm, more power to you. What possible difference could it make to me what some other couple does with their life?

What a waste of energy for all these frustrated religious denial freaks to spend their time poking around in other people's panties--or choirboys pants.

99Percent

I agree wholeheartedly with galiel and LadyShea .