MrDarwin

I agree, Saddam Hussein was a very bad man, and no, I'm not being facetious. So... now what? Do we invade North Korea? How about China? How about Saudi Arabia, ostensibly one of our allies? All these countries have abysmal human rights records.

How much "collateral damage" is too much?

Sakpo

Exactly. As the force displacing the old regime and taking over the United States was obligated to provide law and order. Instead, the U.S. forces came with enough troops to kick out the old regime and protect the oil, and left it at that. The administation didn't want to be seen as occupiers with troops all over the place for political reasons (this being a War of Liberation™ after all). Their decision to protect oil and the oil bureacracy to the exlcusion of all else speaks volumes.

Jesse

Gurdur:
Jesse has claimed the looting of the museum was the "price to pay" for liberating the people of Iraq.

Rubbish. It was completely unnecessary.

Yes Gurdur, perhaps that's why I said:

In fact, nowhere did I say that the destruction of these artifacts was the "price to pay" for the liberation of the Iraqi people. I do think the risk of destroying artifacts is something that sometimes has to be accepted in wars (again, consider the buildings and artifacts lost in WWII), but I also think we have a responsibility to make every reasonable effort to minimize that risk, and clearly we were negligent here.

Gurdur:
3. This is a loss for us all. Jesse has also tried the evasion of claiming that because most information of the museum is (theoretically) held somewhere, the loss is not great.

Once again, you apparently didn't read my post very carefully. I never said that the loss is not great, I just said that "on the plus side" at least we didn't lose the historical information in these artifacts, like the cuneiform writing on the tablet that was smashed. I agree that this is a terrible loss nevertheless.

Jesse

MrDarwin:
I agree, Saddam Hussein was a very bad man, and no, I'm not being facetious. So... now what? Do we invade North Korea? How about China? How about Saudi Arabia, ostensibly one of our allies? All these countries have abysmal human rights records.

How much "collateral damage" is too much?

These other countries have bad human rights records, but with the possible exception of North Korea I don't think any of them kill or torture nearly as large a fraction of their own people as Iraq did under Hussein. Basically, my feeling is that war is justified when the expected death and suffering caused by the war would be less than that caused by leaving a regime in power for another few years, and when there is no reasonable hope of deposing the regime or getting it to treat its own people better by nonviolent means.

DoubleDutchy

Not really. Today the Iraq national Library was looted and set on fire. (ZDF broadcast). Bush will attain immortality like Herostratos before him.

gilly54

I agree that the US' apathy towards safeguarding the museums and hospitals is egregious.

Now that the looters have these artifacts in their possession, they need to find a way to sell them. I would hope that the museum directors get out ASAP, photographs and descriptions of all the stolen items to other museums, known private collectors, Interpol, and on-line auction sites like eBAY along with announcing on loudspeakers that the thieves will not be able to profit from their actions and anyone who buys them will be prosecuted, including their heirs. Then, offer a no-penalty period for the safe return of the items to the museum and hope that the thieves take them up on the offer.

lpetrich

That was a young man who had set fire to the temple of Artemis at Ephesus ~ 21 July 356 BCE, in the hope of getting eternal notoriety. The city's leaders decreed that that gentleman's name be blotted out from the records, but his name survives: Herostratus.

And yes, I do wonder what the Seedling Administration has said about this looting.

MrDarwin

There will be no market for most of these things; most are much too rare and too recognizable, and will be too "hot" to sell. Most of the gold artifacts will likely be melted down. Perhaps some looters will feel remorse. Perhaps an appeal to Iraqi national pride will get some things back. Perhaps not.

Theli

Danya...
Another reason why it's irrational to assign blame to one side only.
From what I've seen the coalition soldiers are still fighting Saddam's military (along with other nutbags), why not blame them?
Wasn't the oil protected from people trying to set it aflame? not so much from looting.

Sakpo...
I wouldn't directly blame them for the burglary, no. I could critizise them for not performing their function, but I would'nt hold them responsible. But this is something alot of people has done in the case of looting in Iraq.

Is being involved in looting a form suffering imposed by an aggressor?


Gurdur...
I understand the obligations the coalition has, but it still doesn't become their fault.
If the lawinforcement where I live suddenly was rendered inoperable, and I took the oppurtunity to assult some guy at work I didn't like, could I then go blame to police for not being there to stop me?
Saying I was the victim of lacking order?

Back to the museum, is the US sole responsible for it being looted?

Sauron

I'm not even convinced that Dubya & Co. knew that such artifacts even existed. I mean, we're talking about one of the least educated and poorly traveled men to ever sit in the White House. What are the chances that he or anyone around him was even remotely aware of the debt that civilization owes to the Fertile Crescent?

In their mind, it all pales in comparison to the Old Testament fictional accounts, so Sumer, Akkad, and Babylon don't even register - except as place names where Hebrew patriarchs allegedly came from.

We're all paying the price for the ignorance of one mental midget in power....