Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 04-04-2003, 01:02 PM

I understand Paul as preaching a different religion to what we now think he was preaching.

I think he did have an ecstatic experience, but never considered Christ to be a real human being - this is all later accretions by others. There is very strong doubt about the authorship of many of the books attributed to him.

Liar? No. Very intersting and complex human being prone to visions. Yes.

Tristan Scott · 04-04-2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fr.Andrew
(HelenM): Is it lying if you speak the German language to Germans? Is it misleading if you speak German to them to 'advance your agenda' which is to be understood?
(Fr Andew): Of course not. But if you faked a German heritage while you were in the company of Germans, in order to gain their confidence so you could advance your agenda--that would come real close in my view.
Paul said that he pretended to be Jewish when in the company of Jews, and Gentile when in the company of Gentiles.
He became "all things to all men"--he misrepresented himself--to sell religion.

That may not be what he meant. He was a Jew. He also fancied himself as the "Apostle of the Gentiles" as well. He may have been simply saying that when he was around those who lived by the Law, that he could relate as he had lived by the Law. When he was around the gentiles and found that there were certain aspects of the Law that they were uncomfortable with, for example circumcision, he could relate to their discomfort also.

Fr.Andrew · 04-04-2003, 02:12 PM

(HelenM): "He didn't say he pretended anything."
(Fr Andrew): Paul was not a gentile. Yet he "became as one". I take him to mean that he pretended to be one--he finessed his way into the company of gentiles to better deliver his message.
You slice it as you please, HelenM. We differ on what it is that constitutes "truth", I suppose.
I read this particular aspect of Paul's philosophy as that of an opportunistic (and articulate) shill...willing to say or do whatever it takes to win converts to his religion.
Thanks for the chat.

Fr.Andrew · 04-04-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tristan Scott
That may not be what he meant. He was a Jew. He also fancied himself as the "Apostle of the Gentiles" as well. He may have been simply saying that when he was around those who lived by the Law, that he could relate as he had lived by the Law. When he was around the gentiles and found that there were certain aspects of the Law that they were uncomfortable with, for example circumcision, he could relate to their discomfort also.

(Fr Andrew): Maybe...maybe not. It just seems to me that as articulate and as forceful as Paul was, he probably meant just what he said.

MortalWombat · 04-04-2003, 02:33 PM

Here are the relevant passages:

Quote:

1 Corinthians 9

19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Sojourner553 · 04-04-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. "

I expect, was saying that he is sensitive to the culture and language of his audience.

I see what you are saying with the first statement "To the Jews I became like a Jew."

But after this he stops talking about culture OR nationaliites:

"To those under the law I came like one under the law" would imply to me he was less than truthful."

This no longer has a I will mirror someone's cultural upbringing. It sounds like he is ready to misrepresent himself as having BELIEFS he does not really possess. Is this not misrepresentation -- and yes a lie. (Agreed some lies are worse than others). But still this is a lie.

Ted Hoffman · 04-04-2003, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Iron Monkey: Paul did not write Acts. The three different versions of his conversion experience in Acts testify to the fact that Acts is a fictionalized account in which Paul is cast as a main character.

Part of Paul's bad rep comes from people trying to reconcile Acts and Paul's letters. Paul's ignorance of the HJ is only a mystery if you accept Acts' version of events.

Fine fine, so acts is fiction. Paul does state lies and contradicts himself severally.
He even went as far as stating that he saw Jesus himself!
1 Corinthians:

Quote:

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

We cant really blame the author of Acts. This guy fictionalized his life.

And MortalWombats' citation above demonstrates that Paul was willing to cheat to win converts.

Ted Hoffman · 04-04-2003, 11:27 PM

Thank you Sojourner and others.

Helen, now, more than one person thinks that Paul lied. Do you agree that Paul lied now?

Toto · 04-05-2003, 12:34 AM

We don't know if Paul was a habitual liar. It is, after all, impossible to know whether he actually wrote all those letters in the Bible, or whether a later forger invented or changed them, and we can't verify most of the claims in the letters in any case. Robert Eisenman thinks Paul was "The Liar" attacked in various Qumran texts. Others suspect that Paul was lying when he said that James sent him to preach to the uncircumcized, and agreed that Paul's converts did not need to follow the law. But I don't know if that is the sort of thing you are talking about.

As for 1 Cor 15:8, it is usually translated as "and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." No one has ever claimed that this means that Paul knew Jesus physically. In fact, the word translated as "abnormally born" (ektroma) is a technical term from Gnosticism, also translated as "the abortion" as explained here:

Quote:

"And last of all, as to the ektrwma, he appeared to me also." "And last of all as to 'the abortion,' he appeared to me also." Notice the article, "as to the abortion," not "as to an abortion."

Now "the abortion" is a technical and oft-repeated term of one of the great systems of the Gnosis, a term which enters into the main fabric of the Sophia-mythus.

In the mystic cosmogony of these Gnostic circles, "the abortion" was the crude matter cast out of the Pleroma or world of perfection. This crude and chaotic matter was in the. cosmogonical process shaped into a perfect "aeon'' by the World-Christ; that is to say, was made into a world-system by the ordering or cosmic power of the Logos. "The abortion" was the unshaped and unordered chaotic matter which had to be separated out, ordered and perfected, in the macrocosmic task of the "enformation according to substance," while this again was to be completed on the soteriological side by the microcosmic process of the "enformation according to gnosis" or spiritual consciousness. As the world-soul was perfected by the World-Christ, so was the individual soul to be perfected and redeemed by the individual Christ.

Ted Hoffman · 04-05-2003, 01:20 AM

What about the juxtaposition of his appearance to paul alongside his appearance to James, Cephas and the twelve? Isnt that likely to mislead the audience/readers into thinking he appeared to Paul in like manner except last in sequence?

This abortion concept - doesn't it fit in well with the journey to Damascus conversion? - that Jesus appeared to him "suddenly" - before he (Saul) was ready? And maybe thats why Paul describes himself as the least of the apostles - that he had to be "snatched" before he could stop persecuting christians?

What would be wrong in interpreting the abortion in that light?

And if thats the case, then we cant blame the author of acts. No?

Let me read about this Sophia mythus thingy....

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04-04-2003, 01:02 PM	#21
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I understand Paul as preaching a different religion to what we now think he was preaching. I think he did have an ecstatic experience, but never considered Christ to be a real human being - this is all later accretions by others. There is very strong doubt about the authorship of many of the books attributed to him. Liar? No. Very intersting and complex human being prone to visions. Yes.

04-04-2003, 02:12 PM	#23
Fr.Andrew Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Betsy's Bluff, Maine Posts: 540	(HelenM): "He didn't say he pretended anything." (Fr Andrew): Paul was not a gentile. Yet he "became as one". I take him to mean that he pretended to be one--he finessed his way into the company of gentiles to better deliver his message. You slice it as you please, HelenM. We differ on what it is that constitutes "truth", I suppose. I read this particular aspect of Paul's philosophy as that of an opportunistic (and articulate) shill...willing to say or do whatever it takes to win converts to his religion. Thanks for the chat.

04-04-2003, 11:27 PM	#28
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Thank you Sojourner and others. Helen, now, more than one person thinks that Paul lied. Do you agree that Paul lied now?

04-05-2003, 01:20 AM	#30
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	What about the juxtaposition of his appearance to paul alongside his appearance to James, Cephas and the twelve? Isnt that likely to mislead the audience/readers into thinking he appeared to Paul in like manner except last in sequence? This abortion concept - doesn't it fit in well with the journey to Damascus conversion? - that Jesus appeared to him "suddenly" - before he (Saul) was ready? And maybe thats why Paul describes himself as the least of the apostles - that he had to be "snatched" before he could stop persecuting christians? What would be wrong in interpreting the abortion in that light? And if thats the case, then we cant blame the author of acts. No? Let me read about this Sophia mythus thingy....

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