Arrowman

Sorry Cretinist, my response was rather glib. Let me explain: Life of Brian was condemned (by some) as a satire on Jesus, but in fact it was not about Jesus at all (in the opening scenes, at the birth of Brian, we clearly see Jesus' birthplace down the street, and later on we see the sermon on the mount). LoB is a satire not on religion, or Christianity in particular, but on what some people do with religion and in particular how they are willing to follow any old prophet - or follow the crowd. Brian spends most of the movie running away from adoring fans who have mistaken him for "The Messiah", when he finally cracks and tells them to "Fuck Off!" they simply ask "How shall we fuck off, Oh Lord?" Etc.

(Also, in Holy Grail, God appears to King Arthur and his knights - and then gets mightily pissed off when they avert their eyes because He's tired of all that grovelling.)

No, it's not just "institutions" that The Simpsons rips in to, but I would say that by and large it is people's attitudes, not the concept of God itself, that the program satirises. For example when Rev Lovejoy says "Marge, just about everything is a sin. <picks up Bible> Have you ever sat down and read this thing? Technically, we're not allowed to go to the bathroom." the point is not to satirise the Bible or Christianity per se, but the dumb things that can happen when you take the Bible literally. (OK, granted, for some of us taking the Bible less than literally is just a copout on the stupidity of the whole thing anyway, but that's not the point here.)

In the particular episode to which you refer, it's not so much that religion is held up as a "money making scam"; it's more (to me) about showing the dumb things people can do (and the scams people can get away with) in the name of religion.

Yes, God is real in The Simpsons, and the show doesn't "close the door on religion" - it simply satirises the dumb things people do in the name of religion. That's my PhD thesis anyway.

Cretinist

I'll concede the point if one thing can be shown: a clear poke at atheism or religious skepticism in general, or a clear pro-religion message.

Something along the lines of South Park's episode where atheists shit out their mouths would be fine.

viscousmemories

I've always thought that the first seasons of The Simpsons were more overtly anti-religious, which I attributed to (although I don't know where I got the idea) Matt Groening not having as much creative control in the latter episodes. Any info on that?

Arrowman

Well, that's just my opinion of what I have seen in The Simpsons. I may be wrong. You may be right. No matter. I'm only posting again because I... cannot... resist... urge... to... point out what I believe is a logical fallacy in your post.

I assume you mean "the point" is:
You: The Simpsons presents a negative view of religion; it is anti-religion.
Me: No, it just satirises the dumb things people do in the name of religion. Not quite the same thing.

If that is "the point" then I don't see where either a "clear poke at atheism" or a "clear pro-religion message" is necessary to prove my point. Either would be sufficient, but not necessary, to prove my point.

If I were writing a satire on "dumb things people do in the name of religion" I should not be obliged to include pokes at atheism, for example, to make sure my audience understood that I was not attacking religion per se - that should be clear from the way I express myself.

Cheers.

seebs

And in the DVD, you can see the fairly bad original tape of them doing a scene with shepherds.

Refused

Wish I would have seen this sooner.. I love The Simpsons.

Anyway, I thought I'd share one of my favorite Homer quotes:

"God, he's my favorite fictional character!"

And remember the episode where Homer had the crayon removed from his brain, which allowed his true intelligence to show? He disproved God, showed his calculations to Ned and ran off.. of course, Ned burned the proof. hehehe. Exxxxcccellent.


From the atheist/celebrity website:
From a February 1, 1999 profile of Groening in the Denver Post:

Matt Groening -- the executive producer of "The Simpsons," who pokes a lot of fun at religion -- was asked by The New York Times whether he believed in God and what he considers the most comical story in the Bible.

Said Groening: "I was very disturbed when Jesus found a demon in a guy, and he put the demon in a herd of pigs, then sent them off a cliff. What did the pigs do? I could never figure that out. It just seemed very un-Christian. Technically, I'm an agnostic, but I definitely believe in hell -- especially after watching the fall TV schedule."

-Rodney
#include <std.disclaimer>
"I would rather be forgotten, than remembered for giving in"
- Refused

Arvel Joffi

I think the Angel episode of the Simpsons does a beautiful job of poking fun at the instant faith that arose from the discovery of the angel, but it also does a nice job of picking on Lisa's "atheism as faith" beliefs. Just as there is no fundamental proof that a god of any sort exists, neither is there proof that one doesn't exist.

livius drusus

Bart Sells His Soul is actually one of my favorite episodes. From major theme to subplot, it is riotously funny throughout and I believe profoundly satirical of xianity, the power of prayer, and a bunch of other gog stuff. Allow me to present my case in standard obsessofan mode.

First of all, the episode begins with Bart in church handing out the apocryphal hymn "In the Garden of Eden" by I. Ron Butterfly. The entire congregation including the good Reverend lustily sing all 28 minutes of it. Homer comments to Marge, sweat pouring off them both from the effort, "Remember when we used to make out to this hymn?" Finally, the poor disheveled organist passes out and Lovejoy notices the hymn sounds like "rock and/or roll."

He then browbeats the kids into ratting out the perp with a sermon which goes high on my all-time favorite Simpsons moments:
Once Bart jeers at Millhouse's absurd superstitions and sells his soul, it's true that shit starts to go wrong for him, but it's all ludicrous shit like the sponge dinosaurs sucking (which they just do) and automatic doors not opening. Quick nod to Jimbo's line at the Kwik-E Mart "way to breathe, no-breath."

Lisa does babble somewhat about the immortality of the soul, and Bart has that dream where he's rowing to the pretty city on a lake without a partner, but I think that's a comment on Bart's panic, not reality. Notice also what a dick Millhouse is to Bart, needling him into high anxiety and then selling his soul to Comic Book Guy for Alf pogs, for the love of jebus.

In the end, Lisa buys his soul back for him and says:
I think that's something of a preface to her later Buddhism and of course, it's deliciously biting that Bart just scarfs down the piece of paper while she's waxing philosophical.

So to conclude this most ludicrous disquisition, I have to say that "Bart Sells His Soul" lampoons superstition, faith, organized religion, and just about everything else in a magnificently multi-layered fashion. Thank you for reading this far. Please look the other way while I rearrange myself so my geek stops showing.

P.S. - The Moe subplot is uproarious as well. ("Daddy this place smells like tinkle.")

Arvel Joffi

"...and drink naught but burning hot cola ..."

:notworthy

Does television get any better than this?