donaldkilroy

Appeal to Ridicule (Mockery) Fallacy

eldar1011

You'd rather I spell it out?

Okay.

donaldkilroy

*sigh*

Redundantly...

Based on what!?!

Look, here you have two men who were conditioned from childhood to be just as sadistic as their father. They haven't answered to anyone from day one. Their resolve is enshrined in their religious and self-centered fanaticism that would ultimately be served by being a martyr in the eyes of the people they've brainwashed for decades with fear, torture and torment, period! It would be a serious blow to everything they and their father have done should they actually allow themselves to be captured and interrogated. If by some slim chance they were captured, they probably already had plans to self-terminate (hang themselves, swallow their tongue, etc.).

The fact of the matter is that their psycho-political hatred for the West ran deep, but not as deep as their pride and lust for control over others at their own peoples expense. If they can no longer rule (be free to do as they please - as in murder, rape, steal, etc. - without having to answer to anyone) as they see fit, then they were obviously going to go out with a bang (no pun intended). Which was clearly the case given the fact that they were unwilling to surrender and were making every effort to kill American soldiers (and commanding their loyal brainwashed followers to do the same) on top of it! Taking them out was the only logical answer given who and what they were. Not to mention the fact that there was a high (99.9999% chance) probability that they would never talk even if they were caught.

Zephyrus

Based on what can you say they wouldn't have cracked? Various posters have offered reasons why they would have--they were spoiled, weak willed, and spineless bastards--while the most you can say is that they were religious fanatics. Of course, there's no evidence whatsoever that they held to any Muslim fundamentalism. They aren't Al Qaeda, you know (and even if they were, we've had success with getting AQ operatives to speak, at that).

Pretty much, it comes down to the fact that we simply don't know now. It's possible that, if we had captured them, we would now have taken Saddam himself captive and quelched the remaining resistance, and it's also possible that we'd have gotten nothing out of it. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle--but regardless, most likely capturing them would have led to some new information.

eldar1011

Eh.

Your characterization is unlike any I've ever heard of the Husseins, particuarly Saddam.

I've heard Saddam being described as a survivor. As a manipulator interested only in power, Saddam would use whatever means necessary to enhance his position. His use of religion was just that, as a tool.

Saddam lacked the religious fanaticism that you describe.

Furthermore, if a last stand was so desriable why not make it when US troops entered Baghdad? Why run and hide, if not to survive. And if survival is your ultimate goal, why not give it up to interrogators.

It doesn't really matter, though, does it? They're dead. They're not talking. And we're wasting each other's time.

I'll leave this by stating that while I see your point and believe that there's some merit to it. I believe that your repeated statements of high likelihood and logical conclusions have not convinced me.

However, I do thank you for your responses.

BDS

Who is being a "naive fool" now, donaldkilroy?

You say (by the way, how do you guys make the "quote" mechanism work): "Their resolve is enshrined in their religious and self-centered fanaticism that would ultimately be served by being a martyr in the eyes of the people they've brainwashed for decades with fear, torture and torment, period!"

Aside from the stupidity of writing "period!" (isn't that a contradiction), what evidence do you have that Hussein's sons were "religious fanatics"? There's plenty of evidence (practically their whole lives) that they were not particularly religious. Their behavior certainly broke every rule in the Koran.

Nor is there evidence that "their psycho-political hatred for the West ran deep." In fact, they collected Western luxury cars, dresed in Western clothes, and lived in Europe, at various times of their lives.

While it is true that they might have committed suicide, and it is also true that they might not have spilled the beansif they had been captured, you have no more evidence to support your opinion than I have to support mine. Indeed, the evidence that you cited in support of your opinion is blatantly false (as I've just pointed out). Donaldkilroy, you remind me of the Hussein family. You have a penchant for attacking people, but lack the skill and the weaponry to do so successfully.

MortalWombat

To quote a whole person's post, just click on the "quote" button at the bottom right of their post. To quote specific sentences, place the sentence or paragraph in {quote} stuff to be quoted {/quote} tags, but replace the { with [.

donaldkilroy

(lack of attention to detail on your part) Read my previous response outlining why they most likely would not have cracked.

spoiled? weak willed? People who are 'spoiled' and/or 'weak willed' do not have the resolve to do the heinous acts these men have done. Especially Uday. It takes someone who is of such a sick, evil, twisted and strong willed nature to do what they've done.

and out comes your confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. That's not all I can or had to say on it...again, lack of attention to detail on your part in reading everything I've stated (thus far).

Neither did many of the Popes of the Middle Ages yet they were still Popes. Obviously the concept of the 'mere appearance' of what you want others to see not know is above your head (i.e., suspension of disbelief).

I never said they were or otherwise.

Please...if that were really true then why aren't we that much closer to finding these WMD let alone the location of Sadam and/or Bin Laden?

ROFL!!!! Talk about wishful thinking (Fallacy)!

At least you can admit that much.

The probability of that is highly improbable. Again, you and those likeminded are not thinking outside the box and have little understanding of the human psyche. Especially ones as warped as what these two SOBs had.

donaldkilroy

Then I'm sorry to say you're a tad ignorant of the subject matter then. There are countless articles, eye-witness accounts, their surviving victims testimonies, etc. not to mention other evidentiary means proving who and what they were.

Just the same as the murderous, rapist and evil bastard Popes did during the Middle Ages. People who profess to be religious always use it as a tool that ultimately serves their own self-centered goals of wealth, power and control over the masses.

It's called delusions of grandeur, and as you admitted he used the guise of religion to serve (as a tool) his own means to an end.

Too many to deal with. Besides, they wanted to inflict pain into the hearts and minds of Americans. What better way to do that then back off and regroup in order to fortify yourself in one position where you can pick off troops one at a time as they tried to assault your position in a vain attempt to capture you.

I believe the saying goes, "Run away to fight another day."

Come on. You know full well that their number was up. They had nowhere to go and no country to hide in. There was no giving up even if it meant surviving. Besides, what would they be surviving? They'd be in jail for an indefinate amount of time and then eventually tried by their own people (humiliated before the whole world) and sentences to death. Why go out that way when you can control your own destiny and how you will die. Again, it's all about control...which they had to the very end.

A discussion (i.e., communication) is never a waste of time.

Thank you.

Then what would it take to convince you?

I reciprocate the same in return.

donaldkilroy

Why, that would be you BDS!

You imply I'm a naive fool yet don't even have the intellectual capacity to figure out something so simple as the "quote" feature...forgive me but I really have to LOL at this one!

LOL!!! I'll let this one go...less you really want me to criticize you further (constructive criticism, of course )

*sigh* Some of you just don't 'get it'...though 'it' is staring you right in the face.

Yet they enforced strict religious principles upon their people, especially their women. No...they didn't exhibit anything remotely religious

Yeah...and? What the Popes did during the middle ages broke every rule of the Bible and the Word of God, yet they were still seen/viewed as religious men.

Again, you're just not getting it. Just because they were greedy for the material goods of the West doesn't mean they liked the West. It's one thing to lavish over the wealth but it's another to be repulsed by the politics and democracy of the West. Big difference you know (obviously you don't know otherwise you wouldn't be making such asinine statements)!

*chuckling* Huh, yeah...I do have more evidence than you in support of my assertion than you do yours (albeit a poorly stated one). How many internet links (which is all I can offer since this is the medium we are in at the moment) would you like me to post for you that detail the heinous evil acts these men have done that account for their resolve against America and American interests?

LOL!!! You didn't point out a damn thing! Well, on the other hand you did point out your obviously suffering from confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance whereas the true facts concerning these men are concerned.

Talk about an unsubstantiated argumentum ad hominem. You don't know me one bit so you have no basis in fact to state what I do or do not have a penchant for. Especially seeing as your a new 12-post cherry. Oh, BTW, if anyone is lacking believe me it is you and your obvious inability to adequately debate (much less effectively communicate) your position.