cjack

I would argue that ANY economic system requires a large pool of unskilled and semi-skilled labourers.

Saying that a worker has the potential to become a factory owner (to use the 19th Century terminology) is not only NOT "nonsensical," but the engine (alongside consumerism) which drives capitalism.

While the majority of people in a capitalist system has "nothing but their labor power" to sell, there is nothing to stop any one of them from devising something new to sell or learning a new skill and elevating themselves above the pool of laborers.

A true communist system would simply insure that everyone has "nothing but their labor power," and would not provide any incentive to be anything more than a laborer. The system itself is a barrier to keep people from dragging themselves out of anything.

It is also rather quaint that you've divided everyone in a capitalist system into "workers" and "ruling class." This ignores the reality of the situation. In the US, for example, there is a vast middle class, and I don't think you can simply lump everyone in a modern economy into a couple of 19th Century "classes" and declare that they are "at war."

I would argue that in a capitalist system, the workers are not "struggling against" the so-called ruling class...they are struggling to become them.

moon

[Insult deleted]

Grad Student Humanist

Yeah, to ignore morons like you who sing the praises of a country which you know nothing about, while enjoying the luxuries brought about by the system you rail against.

Takes a lot of guts to be a communist propagandist who spends all his time on an Internet forum while the people you claim to care for so much don't even have electricity for 24 hours every day (something you would know had you ever gotten off the computer and actually visited the "worker's paradise" you claim to know so much about), much less a computer. You've, as usual, provided no evidence to refute the claims that Castro's government tramples human rights and crushes political dissent. All you have are tired conspiratorial notions, the old "CIA lies" bit. Cuba has been condemned by both the United Nations and Amnesty International for human rights violations. Instead of refutations (or an admission that you were wrong and a liar) all you can come up with is an ad hominem. Typical. You have much more in common with a fundamentalist Xtian than a freethinker. You can't see past your own dogmas and into the real world.

You're the very definition of an armchair communist. You wouldn't survive a month in Cuba, having to scrape by the way thousands of Cubans do. I'd tell you to go to Cuba and see things for yourself, but it's obvious that you're as blind as a creationist fundie when faced with facts that contradict their own worldview. So it wouldn't do you any good.

moon

Great argument. Note, by the way, that the "moderator" did not see fit to edit "morons like you" out of the preceeding post. Note especially the time. The "humanist" made his post at 4:10, and Loren Pechtel edited my post at 4:19. Therefore, he passed over the "morons like you," a direct insult to myself, and edited out "that is just retarded," a statement referring to the "humanist's" argument, not himself.

This discussion will lead nowhere, though. You are a clear anti-communist. The facts are irrelevant unless they can be used to bash the commies.

Let me try a bit, however. OK, who in Cuba is worse off undere Castro? Is there anybody who is better off? You throw out these broad, sweeping claims, but this is very important. No doubt, some groups are wors off. In particular, the drug dealers, pimps and con-artists that swarmed over Havana when it was a Mafia resort for U.S. businessmen are certainly worse off. The exploitative U.S. businesses who paid their workers subsistence wages while raking in huge profits for themselves are certainly worse off. But, the peasants are certainly better off; the workers are better off.

Your assertion that "people" are worse off under Castro is merely an indication of where your class interests lie. So, whereas you cast your lot with the pimps, drug dealers, and Mafia, I cast my lot with the peasants and workers. You see, it's all a question of whose side are you on?

cjack

Pardon me for intruding upon your argument with GSH, but allow me to make a couple of points:

1. I understand why the mods would delete "retarded" and not "moron." Calling someone "retarded" is an offense to those of us with physically and mentally challenged family members. Calling someone a "moron" is just an insult.

2. The fact that people are worse off in Cuba is independent of the class struggle. The simple fact is that the Cuban people live under a brutal, repressive dictatorship. They are worse off simply because they are not free to choose their own path as a nation and a people.

If you'd like to address that in terms of class, then Cuba is an example of the ultimate disparity of class: There is the ruling class (Castro and members of his party), and everyone else.

There is no "struggle" of class against class, because the ruling class (Castro) holds all the cards, so to speak. Class struggle is not allowed, and anyone who dares to speak out against the ruling class risks prison or death.

By offering (as you appear to do) support for the system in Cuba, you cast your lot not with the peasants and workers, but with the ruling class...Castro.

moon

Well, you are simply re-iterating anticommunist propaganda. Would you care to present any facts to back up these assertions?

You blithely assert that Cubans are not able to pursue their own path, but this is exactly what they have done! And this is exactly why the U.S. has such hostility to Cuba! Cuba has decided to go down an alternate path, one that differs from the standard Latin American and Carribean model of brutal exploitation at the hands of U.S. corporations. Why do you think, after all, that the U.S. is so concerned about Cuba, but not Columbia, where the human rights situation is orders of magnitude worse? I mean, it isn't even comparable! Where Columbia is an oligarchical dictatorship that brutally oppresses its people, with 20 political murders per day, 2,000 refugees created every year, the U.S. is sending massive aid to the Columbian dictatorship! And, at the same time, it continues to strangle Columbia. The same story has been played out in all of Latin America, where the U.S. has propped up dictators and tyrants, while attacking Cuba for the sole reason that it refuses to be a U.S. colony.

It is very much a class issue. You can't just wave your hand and say "people" are worse off. You have to ask who is worse off?

And, in fact, the Cuban workers and peasants have shown, time and time again, their desire to defend gains won in the 1959 revolution. Just because you don't think their system is the right one, doesn't mean they don't think so. In 1962 the U.S. drew up plans to launch an all-out invasion of Cuba, but the leadership decided against it because the CIA had determined that there would be 18,000 U.S. casualties in the first 6 months. Castro had armed the entire nation, and it was clear to the U.S. that they would fight to the last man to defend themselves against U.S. aggression.

cjack

Here we go with the "anti-communist propaganda" bullshit again.

I have no problem with Cuba being a socialist country. They could be a giant nudist colony for all I care, but the point is that the Cuban people are not allowed to choose their leaders or their form of government.

Are you suggesting that Castro is not a dictator? Or is he just so wildly popular that they keep electing him over and over again?

moon

This is a muddle. Who are you speaking of when you say the "Cuban people"? In fact, the peasants and workers of Cuba--that is, the vast majority--have repeatedly shown their desire to maintain the gains won in the 1959 revolution and subsequent socialization of the means of production.

But, I am not exactly sure what you mean by "chose their form of government." Perhaps you could point out to me a situation in any capitalist country where the people have been offered a choice between capitalism and socialism. (And I don't mean the silly electoral shell-games.)

In the end, all of the concern expressed by anticommunists about the Cuban people is sheer cynical fraud. Clearly, if you cared at all about Cuba, you would place the blame for the plight of the Cuban people directly at the feet of U.S. imperialism. Any critique of Cuba which does not begin with the recognition of the monstrous crimes committed by the U.S. against the Cuban people is at best misguided, and at worst a cynical deception.

cjack

I am speaking of the Cuban people as a whole...those that live on the island today and are strongly discouraged from leaving.

I also wonder how the "vast majority" of Cubans can show their "desires" without free elections. Perhaps you could explain this?

When I say "chose their form of government," I mean that they live under a dictatorship...a fact you seem to be avoiding for some strange reason. The economic system is not the issue for me.

You DO understand that point, don't you?

You keep trying to derail the issue by referring to other countries in the region or railing against the US. Propaganda, indeed!

At issue (for me) in Cuba is the simple fact that Castro is a dictator. No free elections. No free press. No freedom to dissent. If there could be free elections in Cuba tomorrow, and they elected Castro, I wouldn't be surprised...since they haven't known anything else for over 40 years...but the Cuban people deserve to be free to choose their leaders.

Don't they?

Loren Pechtel

i]Originally posted by moon [/i]
Great argument. Note, by the way, that the "moderator" did not see fit to edit "morons like you" out of the preceeding post. Note especially the time. The "humanist" made his post at 4:10, and Loren Pechtel edited my post at 4:19. Therefore, he passed over the "morons like you," a direct insult to myself, and edited out "that is just retarded," a statement referring to the "humanist's" argument, not himself.

I try to remove the first unacceptable post. I saw his and had it been alone I would have edited it. However, it was clearly in response to what you had posted that I edited out. I considered editing his anyway but decided against it.



Let me try a bit, however. OK, who in Cuba is worse off undere Castro? Is there anybody who is better off?

Sure--Castro and his cronies.