Tercel

Hi Kenny,
My knowledge of Calvinism comes from my own learning as well as that of my friends. However reading the link you give shows clearly that they posit a different type of Calvinism to you.
I argued against them that were two wills in God. They responded by arguing that it would be impossible for such a thing since God by His omnipotence could actualise anything He willed. Their belief in the Calvinist doctrines stemmed (apart from their upbringing) from their belief in the absolute omnipotence of God.

The writer in the link sums it up:
I believe both of these as very important "greater goods" and as far as I can see, belief in both is required in order to form a sufficient solution to the question of evil/suffering. Hence coming back to the point that the goodness and love of the Calvinist God seems to be in question.
If I may give you a link:
<a href="http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm" target="_blank">http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm</a>
Apart from his... interesting... views on the cause of atheism, and bias, he does make some interesting points.

God Bless,
Tercel

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

Philosoft

Kenny, Tercel,

I don't see how this interpretative Calvinism helps deal with the issue generated by the topic at hand. If it is true that eternal punishment for some is a necessary component of the greater good that God is trying to achieve, if God has foreknowledge of the steps required to achieve the greater good, and if the greater good is a purposeful goal, how can it be said that all steps toward said goal are not themselves purposeful? God can will universal salvation all he wants, but if he is unable to instantiate that will because of the existence of a greater will, then he is purposefully denying the former will in order to instantiate the latter.

On a related note, does it not bother either of you that this supposed greater good is entirely inaccessable to anyone but God? You guys might really enjoy yourselves in heaven, but you will at some point realize that there is something better you are not privy to. Your being in heaven can't be the greater good because the greater good itself requires some receive eternal punishment and it doesn't appear necessary for me to go to hell so you can go to heaven. No, the supposed greater good must be a function of the salvation/damnation dichotomy. Presumably, only God can be satisfied that the whole of human will is... in balance, I suppose because only he is privy to all wills of all individuals.

spishack

I said that if I could understand everything about God than that would in essence make me God. The fact that God is infinite and we are finite make it quite impossible for us to understand God.
You won't understand when you are comparing finite things.
If something is of infinite worth than it deserves all the glory and praise otherwise it would not be of inifinite worth. That is why God who is of infinite worth must bring glory to himself. If he did not then He would be guilty of idolatry. The prideful human (which is all of us) hates/loathes this idea because all of a sudden we have to answer to something of higher value than ourself. Because we are finite beings and are used to comparing ourselfs to other finite beings we automatically see this as being a glory hungry God. But comparing the finite glory of us to the infinite glory of God things change. We immediately see an infinite gap between us and God and instead of saying why does God deserve all the glory, we fall to our knees and are thankful that he is gracious and good enough to share some of that glory with us.

Peace

Fiach

[Fiach] Peace, Lad. I am just naturally abrasive but it is not personal.

Fiach, Infidel Terror of the Web boards.

Philosoft

How do we know what we understand and what we don't? Is it possible for us to believe we understand some things about God and are mistaken?

<strong> Heh. That makes 6.5 billion of us.

<strong> Who determines the Doctrine of Deservedness™? The something of infinite worth? Can you say "tautology"?

<strong> Now there's a new one. Not sure I understand, though. Sorry.

<strong> Precisely. We lack the ability to fundamentally understand why we're supposed to do the most important thing. Presumably by design! And when this designed-in malunderstanding manifests, we are told to simply ignore it, and have "faith" that this dichotomy between our judgements and theological pronouncements is nonexistent.

<strong> How do we compare ourselves? You just said we can't comprehend infinite anything and now we can somehow understand infinite glory enough to know that we want some, selfish bastards that we are?

doodad

Fiach I have enjoyed the post I am trying to refer to. Could you do it some other way so I could view your post while I am responding to it?

Meanwhile, let me try to respond some of your points.

You believe our preferences are not voluntary, and seem to think that some have a tendency towards analysis, atheism, etc. where others have
a tendency towards beliefs, hallucinations, etc.
Personally I don't know and hadn't given it much thought. Maybe I am a hybrid in this respect.
I am basically interested in scientific inquiry and things of that nature, but only at a cursory level. The same goes for my religion. I take it in small doses because that's the extent of my interest in it and I have only a small need of it.

Could religious belief lead to hallucinations and delusions? It's quite possible. Muhammad apparently was delirious towards the end of his travels in the desert, and the guy who wrote the book of Revelations was said to be losing it. I think the zealots, in their futile attempts to make sense out of nonsense, somehow short circuit and make some pretty irrational conclusions about what they are dealing with. It's like trying to make sense out of nonsense. They rationalize things to make them work out.

A person's environment may have an effect on his tendency to be drawn one way or another. People who live around other intelligent people and who
experience intellectual pursuits probably will gravitate towards analysis and reason, where those who live primarily a sensory lifstyle, which is the case with slum dwellers, will probably learn towards emotionalism and irrational beliefs. These types are lazy thinkers and tend to be irresponsible, so they look for the free lunch that religion promises. Folks who are poor and not well educated are fair game for the zealots because they're ripe for the picking.
Religion to them becomes an opiate in that they stop trying to provide for their own needs. Why should they try? Didn't Jesus say the meek shall inherit the earth, and all that other socialistic tripe?

Americans are still very materialistic, and perhaps it's because we still have a life of plenty. We have developed a taste for technology, applied science, and commercial entertainment such as professional sports events, football, baseball, and the like. I personally am not much of a sports fan, but I do occasionally like to watch winter olympic events and ice skating. To me these things are a blend of sport and grace or culture.

Many of us love our big 18 wheelers, especially the Peterbuilts with the big noisy CAT engines, our 9,000 hp diesel train engines, the queen of the skies, dear old 747, and the giant earth moving rigs. I was a farm kid and I started driving a huge tractor at the age of 7, so I guess I have still not grown up at the age of 64. I think the American way as compared to the more sophisticated European way of doing thinks was very apparent in WWII. A beautiful tribute to the American genius was the comment made by the German tank commander about a cake in the movie "Battle of the Bulge". He said the krauts worried about fuel for their tanks while the fresh cake he was holding, which came from America, was indicative of the power and attitude of the American army. Our logistical system was tops and it could not have been so without a rich natural resource base. Stay tuned Fiach, as our gravy days are drawing to a close. We are overly dependent upon crude oil from abroad, and our iron and coal deposits are lying in waste because of the environmentalists. As time moves on Americans will learn to value the cultural amenities that our European friends do becaue there will be little left to worship in the way of material wealth.

Guilt is quite destructive to self esteem, and I have been posting on some fundamentalist boards that are trying to address the problems associated with legalistic churches. There are pieces on the net about legalism and the negative effects on those who fall prey to it in case you are interested. It's like these poor saps have been brain washed because they get very defensive when told of what their problem is. They'll piss and moan about their problems until an outsider like me tries to help then and then they circle their wagons and really pull together to repel my unwanted advice. How can one help someone if they don't want help?

A common trait, and a major problem, of fundamentalist believers is that they tend to take the bible literally, I will certainly agree to that.

It's hard for me to remember what you were saying and respond to it so maybe I'd better shut down before it gets any sillier. Just one more question before I go.

You had spoken of zealoutry, as with Hitler and others, and you seemed to imply that Timothy McVeigh was some kind of a religious zealot. Is that what you were saying or did I take you wrong? He was very dedicated to his cause, but I didn't realize that religious convictions were involved. He was striking out against govenment oppression, which is becoming increasingly evident here in the states, and I admire him for his distate of opression. However, his methods were obviously not acceptable. It's very possible that some day, hopefully long after I'm gone, there will be one hell of a shoot out here in America. Yes, a revolt against the government. I hope the day never comes, but it has happened in European countries. The problem is, the aftermath of a revolution leaves a county even more vulnerable to fruit cakes and extremist factions.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: doodad ]</p>

Tercel

Kind of: I think that the greatest good from God's point of view is that all beings in creation willingly be conformed into the likeness of Christ. What happens when some refuse this? I don't see that God can be said to be purposefully denying his will for universal salvation by allowing the rejection of salvation - given my understanding that free acceptance is a necessary part of salvation.
Of course that's from my (semi liberal Protestant semi Orthodox) answer from my own perspective, and I'd guess you were talking only about Calvinism, so perhaps I'd better leave that one up to Kenny (if he wants it )...

Which greater good are you referring to?

Will we? Is there any reason we won't know everything there is to know in heaven?

Philosoft

Whatever it is that is brought about by human free will/self-determinism/the existence of suffering.

<strong> Would this not make us equivalent to God? I was under the impression God went to some lengths to ensure this did not happen.

Fiach

Doodad writes: "Fiach I have enjoyed the post I am trying to refer to. Could you do it some other way so I could view your post while I am responding to it?"

I am still trying to figure out this quote system. I need to find some 8 year old kid who probable knows how to do it.

"Meanwhile, let me try to respond some of your points."

Hope this works.

"You believe our preferences are not voluntary, and seem to think that some have a tendency towards analysis, atheism, etc. where others have
a tendency towards beliefs, hallucinations, etc.
Personally I don't know and hadn't given it much thought. Maybe I am a hybrid in this respect."

Perhaps I put it in the starkest contrasts. Obviously people's tendencies toward rational thinking and mysticism are spread out along a wide spectrum. Most of us are not at either exteme.

"I am basically interested in scientific inquiry and things of that nature, but only at a cursory level. The same goes for my religion. I take it in small doses because that's the extent of my interest in it and I have only a small need of it."

It sounds like you are open minded to an extent.

"Could religious belief lead to hallucinations and delusions?"

Yes, but only in a small percentage of extremely zealous believers. I think that they have some variation on schizophrenia to begin with. Most religious believers never have a hallucination. As for delusion, it depends on your definition of delusion. It is belief that goes against rational processing. In that sense, I consider all religious belief to be delusional. I don't want to make a big issue of that. 80% of humans have religion and are therefore "delusional." They might claim that we 20% sceptics are lacking in mystical awareness and are abnormal because we are the minority.

" It's quite possible. Muhammad apparently was delirious towards the end of his travels in the desert, and the guy who wrote the book of Revelations was said to be losing it."

Reading the Book of Revelations certainly suggests a very dodgy or daft fellow. Or maybe he just ate the wrong kind of mushrooms, eh?

" I think the zealots, in their futile attempts to make sense out of nonsense, somehow short circuit and make some pretty irrational conclusions about what they are dealing with. It's like trying to make sense out of nonsense. They rationalize things to make them work out."

We often say that they "rationalise" but they are not rationalising. They are coming up with a daft explanation that may be complex but usually is not logical and therefore not rationalising.

"A person's environment may have an effect on his tendency to be drawn one way or another. People who live around other intelligent people and who
experience intellectual pursuits probably will gravitate towards analysis and reason, where those who live primarily a sensory lifstyle, which is the case with slum dwellers, will probably learn towards emotionalism and irrational beliefs. These types are lazy thinkers and tend to be irresponsible, so they look for the free lunch that religion promises. Folks who are poor and not well educated are fair game for the zealots because they're ripe for the picking.
Religion to them becomes an opiate in that they stop trying to provide for their own needs. Why should they try? Didn't Jesus say the meek shall inherit the earth, and all that other socialistic tripe?"

I can't argue with that. Mystical hallucinations are far more common among third world people than Europeans among whom it is now rare. It was not rare among Europeans a century ago.



"Americans are still very materialistic, and perhaps it's because we still have a life of plenty. We have developed a taste for technology, applied science, and commercial entertainment such as professional sports events, football, baseball, and the like. I personally am not much of a sports fan, but I do occasionally like to watch winter olympic events and ice skating. To me these things are a blend of sport and grace or culture."

I confess. I like material things. I wish I had more. But is that wrong to do so? I am a Rugby fan and Football (Soccer) but hate Cricket and Golf. And we Scots invented Golf, which to me is nothing to brag about.

"Many of us love our big 18 wheelers, especially the Peterbuilts with the big noisy CAT engines, our 9,000 hp diesel train engines, the queen of the skies, dear old 747, and the giant earth moving rigs. I was a farm kid and I started driving a huge tractor at the age of 7, so I guess I have still not grown up at the age of 64. I think the American way as compared to the more sophisticated European way of doing thinks was very apparent in WWII. A beautiful tribute to the American genius was the comment made by the German tank commander about a cake in the movie "Battle of the Bulge". He said the krauts worried about fuel for their tanks while the fresh cake he was holding, which came from America, was indicative of the power and attitude of the American army. Our logistical system was tops and it could not have been so without a rich natural resource base. Stay tuned Fiach, as our gravy days are drawing to a close. We are overly dependent upon crude oil from abroad, and our iron and coal deposits are lying in waste because of the environmentalists. As time moves on Americans will learn to value the cultural amenities that our European friends do becaue there will be little left to worship in the way of material wealth."

I think that we appreciate the simple things of life more than you chaps. You are always on the run. You must do this at 0900 and drive to there at 1130, eat at 1200, go to tennis at 1300, pick up the girls from ballet class at 1430, and the boys from soccer practice at 1500. You never stop until your head hits the pillow. You worry about schedules. We are different. We eat our major meal at about 1400 (2 PM) and have a small dinner at 9PM in the evening. I can hike over to the Caledonia Canal and sit on a bench looking at Loch Ness for an hour or two doing absolutely nothing. My wife and I walk our two dogs along the North Sea shore at the Firth of Moray watching gulls and cormorants. BORING...to you folks.

"Guilt is quite destructive to self esteem, and I have been posting on some fundamentalist boards that are trying to address the problems associated with legalistic churches. There are pieces on the net about legalism and the negative effects on those who fall prey to it in case you are interested. It's like these poor saps have been brain washed because they get very defensive when told of what their problem is. They'll piss and moan about their problems until an outsider like me tries to help then and then they circle their wagons and really pull together to repel my unwanted advice. How can one help someone if they don't want help?"

I think fundamentalism is to the brain like a computer virus is to a computer. It get in and alters the mental processing in ways that the victim is unaware but we can see it just as we see it when our computer crashes. For Tim McVeigh, his biblical literalism combined with perhaps some genuine concerns about democratic erosion in America let to the OK bombing.

"A common trait, and a major problem, of fundamentalist believers is that they tend to take the bible literally, I will certainly agree to that."

Exactly like a computer virus, eh?

"It's hard for me to remember what you were saying and respond to it so maybe I'd better shut down before it gets any sillier. Just one more question before I go."

Fire away.

"You had spoken of zealoutry, as with Hitler and others, and you seemed to imply that Timothy McVeigh was some kind of a religious zealot. Is that what you were saying or did I take you wrong? "

McVeigh did hate the government and felt that it was persecuting Christians like the Branch Davidians. On the front seat of his truck he had two Books. One was the Bible, the other was the Turner Diaries, a pseudo-novel instructing Chritian Identity types to overthrow the government and attack government facilities. It is an infamous book with much anti-semitic and anti-black bigotry. They lace it with selected Old Testament quotes in which god orders the utter destruction of the enemies of God. It is crazy. McVeigh was definitely criminally insane and a religious fanatic in deadly combination.

"He was very dedicated to his cause, but I didn't realize that religious convictions were involved. He was striking out against govenment oppression, which is becoming increasingly evident here in the states, and I admire him for his distate of opression. "

Admire Thomas Paine instead of Tim McVeigh.

"However, his methods were obviously not acceptable. It's very possible that some day, hopefully long after I'm gone, there will be one hell of a shoot out here in America. Yes, a revolt against the government. I hope the day never comes, but it has happened in European countries. The problem is, the aftermath of a revolution leaves a county even more vulnerable to fruit cakes and extremist factions."

That scares me. If there is a revolution, what will replace your current government of corporate elite? A Christian Taliban with nukes? Yikes!

Good day, Mate,

Fiach

Kenny

Hi Tercel,

Thanks for the link. It was an interesting article. I am not without appreciation for some of the accents of the East and for some of the correctives it has to offer to Western theology. Some of the author’s criticisms of the West, in my opinion, were right on target.

Along with the author, I would agree that the negative relation in which a sinner stands towards God has to do, not so much with the manner in which God has oriented Himself toward the sinner, but the manner in which the sinner has orientated himself towards God. Just as when I set myself in opposition to a brick wall by pushing against it, by Newton’s third law, the wall, in turn, opposes me, the sinner who sets himself in opposition to God’s goodness finds himself opposed by that goodness. Echoing the sentiments of the author, I agree that Heaven and Hell are fundamentally an experience of the same reality – namely, the goodness of God – and that the difference between them is to be found in one’s orientation towards that reality. Those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ and conformed to His image will find themselves compatible with God’s goodness and will experience it as infinite joy. Those who are clothed in the filthy rags of their own righteousness and still centered on themselves will experience God’s goodness
as “wrath,” “torment,” and an “unquenchable fire.”

However, the author goes overboard in condemning the judicial metaphor appropriated by Western theology. Like it or not, it is a Biblical metaphor. All most all New Testament scholars acknowledge the judicial background of Paul’s justification language, for example. That God judges and condemns sinners and that God’s wrath is directed towards sinners is also Biblical, so the author should not be so quick to condemn Western theology for appropriating such language. As one with definite Western theological leanings, I am also disappointed that the author chose to portray the Western theological tradition in the worst possible light. I would hope that I would be more charitable if I were to address the Eastern tradition.

With respect to the following quote:

I agree with the author’s portrayal of judgment, but I ask, by what cause will God find love in the hearts of those who will rejoice in His light? Will not that love be the result of what God Himself has done in those hearts? Will there be any ground for boasting in those hearts that they did it themselves or that it was simply part of who they were in their “eternal selves”? Were it not for the work of God’s grace, would God find any human hearts in which there was not hatred? If there is one thing that the West has understood better than the East, in my opinion, it would be the degree to which the disease of sin afflicts the human heart, how stubborn and rebellious that heart truly is, and how much in need it is of God’s grace to change it.

I realize that you are very informed with regard to Christian doctrine, and from reading your posts I see that your knowledge of the Christian tradition exceeds my own in many areas. Being a Calvinist, however, my main concern was to point out that the Calvinism you described is not universally representative of all Calvinists – mostly for the benefit of the others reading this thread. I find that outside of the Calvinistic tradition, most (whether Christian or non-Christian) seem to identify Calvinism with its harshest forms without understanding the real diversity that exists within Calvinism -- and that this is even true of those who are otherwise very knowledgeable of the Christian tradition.

You stated that Calvinism placed the sovereignty of God above all else. Some Cavinists (like your friends, it seems) do indeed adopt Calvinism for that very reason. Yet, while it is true that almost all Calvinistic theologies place a strong emphasis on the sovereignty of God, the main factor that led me into Calvinism (and many other Calvinists I know) was not any particular concern with maintaining the sovereignty of God, – I think a strong view of God’s sovereignty is compatible with non-Calvinistic soteriologies as well – but a recognition of how strongly I depend on God’s grace at work in my life and the recognition that my positive response to God’s call had nothing to do with any special merit or humility in me – that were it not for God’s special operation in my heart, I would have continued in my rebellion against Him just like most of the rest of humanity. But God graciously saved me by transforming my heart, and He continues to transform it by His grace to be a fitting vessel of His love.

Anyway, I don’t intend to stay on this thread. In fact, writing this was simply a nice study break from preparing for end of the quarter finals. Thanks again for the link.

In Christ,
Kenny