Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Osiris · 12-11-2002, 05:49 PM

You're going to heaven because you stopped lying to yourself. Hell is lying to yourself.

Philosoft · 12-11-2002, 07:32 PM

Infinity, I will buy you and Amie a room.

Humble Heathen · 12-11-2002, 07:42 PM

Quote:

you'll all be in heaven with me...so you heathens better emotionally prepare now to spend eternity with me...
BWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Doesn't sound so bad to me. I'd rather be with you than some dick like Pat Robertson. And I'm sure you'd look much better in a tight, angelic robe anyway.

12-11-2002, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Humble Heathen:


Doesn't sound so bad to me. I'd rather be with you than some dick like Pat Robertson. And I'm sure you'd look much better in a tight, angelic robe anyway.

Careful chap, where I come from a comment like that could get you slapped with a sexual harassment robe, er, suit.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Synaesthesia ]

Psycho Economist · 12-11-2002, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by faustuz:
Should I, God forbid (ah the irony!), ever become a theist I will surely become a die-hard Calvinist fundy since no alternative theology makes any sense to me. .... I guess I�d better remain an atheist.

I hate to say "me too!", but...
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Then again, I was raised in a Calvinist fundy (Presbyterian Church in America) church.

I'd let my inner fundy ramble on about how there's no such thing as "getting your ticket punched", but I'm trying to tune him out.

sourdough · 12-12-2002, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by backslider:
I grew up in a fundie home, school and church and "accepted Jesus as my personal savior" when I was 13, got baptised and the whole thing. The process of becoming an atheist began in college after I got out of the fundie environment. I think because of how I was raised I'm extra adamant about my atheism.

But if there is a God, haven't I 'punched my ticket?' Isn't this atheist going to heaven if it exists? Kind of the reverse of someone like Hitler getting salvation in his final moments by uttering a simple prayer after all the evil that had come before.

I've never had the opportunity to ask a christian their position on this, but if memory serves me they might say I had never *really* given my heart to Jesus when I was 13-- I somehow didn't mean it enough so I'm not saved after all. Because if I were, the Holy Spirit would be in me and there's no way I would have abandoned my belief.

Just a curious thought.

piss on holy spirit superstitious dumf****s,tell them you will get reincarnated and live forever as anyone or anything you want,or you will join the Continuum and live as omnipotent Q being,travel thru time back and forth any time you like,,ok its a bunch o huey,but hey they got their believes I can have mine so who's to say I'm not right!?
thats what I tell them.

WinAce · 12-12-2002, 04:08 PM

Well, Calvinism at least is consistent with an all-knowing beastie. You should see the mental gymnastics some of them carry out to maintain belief in a *non-Calvinistic* omniscient beastie.

Nope, either omniscient Calvistic gods for me or lesser volcano, imperfect gods like those of the volcano. Although to be honest, I've been meaning to resurrect that belief anyway.

Ojuice5001 · 12-16-2002, 05:51 PM

You know, I can actually think of a reason that, from a classical-theology point of view, "once saved, always saved" makes sense. Basically, it's this. You're judged by your whole life, by a being who stands outside time. (We don't know that for sure, but it's a fair assumption.) Now, we know that if you spent years sinning, accepted Jesus, and then died, you would go to heaven, even if you had only spent a month being saved before you died. So, if everything in your life is taken into account, why shouldn't you also go to heaven if you accept Jesus, spend years sinning, and then die? It seems implausible to humans because we tend to think of eternity as coming after the end of someone's life. But, according to the more intellectual Christians, that's not what eternity is; eternity is simply outside of time. And if the stuff that happened inside time matters at all, there's no reason the scale should be weighted in favor of the stuff that happened later in life.

If this is true, then October 1997 (when I accepted Jesus in exactly the way that, according to conservative Xianity, gets you saved) should be able to atone for my subsequent worship of the other gods. Sounds a little implausible, but no more so than the whole Christian concept.

I wonder if Jack Chick believes in "once saved, always saved." I've never seen a tract that addresses the issue.

doodad · 12-17-2002, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrDarwin:


This is the typical reply I see when this comes up. But it does raise the interesting question, how many of those people who believe themselves to be Christian and saved aren't--any of them might potentially reject, renounce, or otherwise lose their faith in the future--and if we don't really know who is saved and who isn't by their own testimony, why should the unbeliever both to listen to anybody when it comes to claims about God and salvation?

I'm not of the "once saved always saved camp" but there are those who place an inordinate value on the idea of being saved. Believing this seems to soothe their fear of eternal damnation, which is something that has been drummed into their head by others. It's wierd, but somehow they associate eternal damnation with the lack of an afterlife and they associate salvation with an
eternal afterlife in Heaven.

It appears to me that the concepts of salvation versus damnation are part of, perhaps basic premises of, a behavioral system. It's the reward punishment principle. You are rewarded for obedience by going to Heaven and you are punished for disobedience by going to Hell. It does seem to have an influence on behavior, but the strange part of it is that the reward or punishment comes after mortal life ends. Has any
live mortal been rewarded or punished lately?
Apparently the near term reward is this feeling of security that comes from believing one is saved, and the near term punishment is a guilty conscience or peer pressure.

LinuxPup · 12-17-2002, 06:22 PM

Backslider:

Well, since you are asking a question concerning Christian doctrine, have you consulted the Bible?

One set of verses that come to mind are the following:

Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach --
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

You'll notice in verse 23 that it lays a condition to the salvation spoken of earlier: if you continue in the faith...

Any discussion of this sort must resort to the Bible, as we are talking of Christian doctrine.

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12-11-2002, 05:49 PM	#11
Osiris Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 40	You're going to heaven because you stopped lying to yourself. Hell is lying to yourself.

12-11-2002, 07:32 PM	#12
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Infinity, I will buy you and Amie a room.

12-12-2002, 04:08 PM	#17
WinAce Beloved Deceased Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 1,539	Well, Calvinism at least is consistent with an all-knowing beastie. You should see the mental gymnastics some of them carry out to maintain belief in a non-Calvinistic omniscient beastie. Nope, either omniscient Calvistic gods for me or lesser volcano, imperfect gods like those of the volcano. Although to be honest, I've been meaning to resurrect that belief anyway.

12-16-2002, 05:51 PM	#18
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	You know, I can actually think of a reason that, from a classical-theology point of view, "once saved, always saved" makes sense. Basically, it's this. You're judged by your whole life, by a being who stands outside time. (We don't know that for sure, but it's a fair assumption.) Now, we know that if you spent years sinning, accepted Jesus, and then died, you would go to heaven, even if you had only spent a month being saved before you died. So, if everything in your life is taken into account, why shouldn't you also go to heaven if you accept Jesus, spend years sinning, and then die? It seems implausible to humans because we tend to think of eternity as coming after the end of someone's life. But, according to the more intellectual Christians, that's not what eternity is; eternity is simply outside of time. And if the stuff that happened inside time matters at all, there's no reason the scale should be weighted in favor of the stuff that happened later in life. If this is true, then October 1997 (when I accepted Jesus in exactly the way that, according to conservative Xianity, gets you saved) should be able to atone for my subsequent worship of the other gods. Sounds a little implausible, but no more so than the whole Christian concept. I wonder if Jack Chick believes in "once saved, always saved." I've never seen a tract that addresses the issue.

12-17-2002, 06:22 PM	#20
LinuxPup Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 248	Backslider: Well, since you are asking a question concerning Christian doctrine, have you consulted the Bible? One set of verses that come to mind are the following: Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -- Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. You'll notice in verse 23 that it lays a condition to the salvation spoken of earlier: if you continue in the faith... Any discussion of this sort must resort to the Bible, as we are talking of Christian doctrine.

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