Pomp

Gemma Therese,

Tell me, Typhon, have you ever been in love? Was it intellectually motivated?

Two "arguments from love" from two different posters on the same day!

I'll bite. Yes, I've been in love and, no, it was not "intellectualy motivated" or, at least, not entirely. What conclusion do you wish to draw from this?

Synaesthesia

Gema
The reasons people belive in God are quite well known here. The feeling of belief in God is also quite well known. His ability to tap dance is, however, news to us.

I quite assure you that if God is omnipotent, he could perform the tap dance of Doom which would be sufficient to convince any atheist of his godhood.

Samhain

Gemma:

Of course, this statement is spoken out of ignorance. What you fail to realize is that many of us here at II were formerly theists, and made decisions based upon something other than the fact that we just wanted to be atheists. You seem to imply that all of us here want to be atheists, which is, I'm sorry to say, untrue. I don't think personal desires come into play with this decision. I doubt there are many of us who wish it upon ourselves to be shunned by the theistic majority in the world, or feel a personal fulfillment in debating the existence of god(s) ad nauseam. We all came to our decisions based upon reason and logic and the perceptions of truth. Perhaps you might like to listen to what we're saying before attempting to refute it by shifting the burden of proof or making hasty generalizations or illogical and unsupported assertions. Remember, most of us were the same as you, and yet, we turned away from the myths and the fairy tales for a reason. So actually try and listen to our proofs because maybe, just maybe, we know a little more than you on the subject.

Typhon

You assume too much, or too little, take your pick. Why did you "waste time" by posting in the forum, which is here for debating just such questions, if you are unwilling to do anything other than post-n-preach without backing up your statements when questioned.

PLEASE, answer my questions. I don't know how many times I should have to repeat them, honestly, and with as much patience as I can muster.

1. If you don't have a good answer, or feel you need to think about the issue first, say so.
2. If you are unable to answer, time, no good answer, or whatever reason, say so.
3. If you are just not going to bother to answer, as you have, then quit posting your one line empty nah-nah-nah zingers peppered with (for me) offensive Xian sentiments. We have a section of the forums specifically for such, pardon my French, crap.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=47" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=47</a>

Gemma sez

Good lord, I would hope if god came down and instead of fixing the world's problems, or talking to people about the true nature of reality, forging world peace, etc., he or she simply put on a trite musical piece, that you would become one too! Celestial overlords in tails and top hats might be some strange Victorian ideal of god, but it certainly wouldn't be mine.

Seriously though, I've never felt that I had a closed mind, nor a set of unreasonable requirements for any supposed god, to prove their "godhood."

I think it would be keen, though not necessary, if the supernatural existed. Having gods in the world would be interesting, if nothing else. But there simply is no reasonable evidence that they exist, or ever have.

Funny you should ask, I'm in love now.

Yes, absolutely it was "intellectually motivated." It was also physically motivated, and emotionally motivated, and hormonally motivated, and even socially, motivated.

Where do you think love comes from, a magic barrel?

My attraction to my partners, past and present, occurs on many levels.

1. Physical attraction. I see someone who triggers sexual interest because of how they look, smell, move, or act. Much of this isn't even a conscious act, but takes place all the same. Youth, mature sexual characteristics, health, and availability are just a few of the considerations that my pattern recognizing brain lines up, to make my senses go zing. Add in my own personal love-map (for example, I really like dark hair, pale skin, interesting noses, slim build with wide hips, and big eyes). Not surprisingly, I'm never been romantically or reproductively in love, with someone who I didn't find to be physically or sexually attractive. This wasn't the sole reason by far, that I was with this person, but it’s a powerful motivator at certain stages of attraction. My current love is definitely a source of physical attraction, and she pulls powerfully on my libido, sense of aesthetics, and my underlying desire to reproduce.

2. Intellectual attraction. I'm a very active thinker and socializer. I'm a garrulous social animal, and enjoy learning more about the world around me. I'm in love with my partner (and have been with others, in the past) partly because we get along so well in this area. She's intelligent, witty, educated, interested in the world, able to socialize with others and responsive to my own social needs, and believes in many of the same values and ideas that I do. This means that not only is she the kind of person I like hanging around with, but that she has the intellectual traits that make her a good partner, and in this case, a good mother as well. As I'm looking for someone at this stage of my life to produce and help raise offspring, this is important to me.

3. Emotional attraction. This isn't really separate from the intellectual one, as all emotions have their seat in the brain and its chemistry. However, it's a more subtle thing. I love my partner not just because I want to mate with her, or because I deliberately think she has the qualities that I admire and desire in a life-partner or mate, but also because we've spent time together, during courtship and our now almost one-year-old relationship, and this has formed a bond, on many levels. It is nice and feels good to have someone who loves you, who kisses you, and makes you sandwiches, and touches your hand, and laughs at your jokes, and goes to the movies with you, and reads in bed next to you, and yes, even laughs at the silly Christians with you (no offense intended, this is just a shared private enjoyment of ours), and a thousand other things. Socially, it is an important issue, and emotionally it is as well. It reduces stress, provides support and an ally, and builds a bond of shared experiences. This does not however, exist, separate from the other two sources I pointed out above. In real life, all this is fairly well muddled together, producing that somewhat euphoric state, that we call love.

But all this love is NOT mysterious to me. It makes sense. It arises from processes and sources that I understand, and are to be expected, considering what I am, a sexual, organic, social life form. And do you know what? Love is no less glorious, no less orgasmic, no less magically, mind-blowingly, feet tappingly, simply amazing, because I understand it.

That's why the whole "god is mysterious" always sounds like a line of bull to me. Understanding a thing, only makes it that much more beautiful and precious and cherished. I find the world more fulfilling and sublime, because it is a natural wonder, because it is understandable, because it simply is, than if all the creation myths of the world were true.

Perhaps all you need is indeed love, love that is, tempered with knowledge.

.T.

[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

Theli

Gemma...
But, how would we atheists know it was a god we saw if we don't believe in any gods?
What does "god" look like?

Jobar

Typhon, that was a top-notch post. And I agree with you totally about love- I too have been there!

Gemma Therese- if you are not going to try to convince us logically that God exists, please feel free to go to the Preaching forum and witness all you please! Watch out for the lions though...

Dr Rick

That would be almost as unreasonable as believing a religious text that describes four-legged insects, rabbits that chew cud, snakes that eat dust and talk, hornets that bite, and an earth that is flat.

bonduca

Not only would I still be an atheist, but if I saw something that weird, I'd run like hell (if you'll pardon the expression).

himynameisPwn

To play devils advocate here, Im going to say you have free will even when threatened with torture. Do you have the free will to murder your mom? Yes. Will you go to jail if you do? Yes(provided you don't have millions of dollars to buy justice).

You have free will to do right or wrong, but then you have to accept the consequences. Of course, thats assuming god and hell exist.

Volcanen

I'll throw in a couple more comments in for this one after Gemma Theres's comment about not wanting to explain why. Alright Gemma if you are so intent on preaching to us agnostics and atheists, and as it is to us atjeists there is no such thing as god to pray to. Listen to George Carlin sometime, he said something to the extent of "I'd rather pray to Joe Pesci, he looks like a guy who can get things DONE" Now, with that said, why preach and not explain, it serves no purpose but to make you appear to be a fanantic, Typhon has rfuted many of your arguments eloquently and with logic, but still you cling to them. So once you explain yourself to us, and not say your willing to die rather than "convert" to atheism, then you have no business lecturing us about our beliefs and reasons, when yours remain unknown. Listen & read, then apply or refute. Some of the greatest ways of information processing I have found. Use it sometime and listen to logic of others until you come up with yours. By the way I belive there is no god in any way shape or form simply because he has never shown himself to me. and here are my others
A.) Where is proof that doesn't contradict itself
B.) You get preached at constantly
C.) If he was there and we knew it, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, so logic says that in billions of years (this may not seem a long time for the universe, where is his concrete evidence)
D.) Faith is a tool for manipulating the masses (look at the crusades, spanish inquisition, and sept. 11 for my resoning behind this one)
and last of all
E.) People like you who give 0 resons behind anything other than faith and illogical and inane answers