Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scigirl · 08-03-2002, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
I would like to debate the question posed by the title of this thread with Scigirl or somebody else in a formal debate, but I think Arrowman kind of already stated my position. Christianity per se does not promote homosexual bigotry, but people use it as justification for political activism.

Well I'll debate you. My thoughts on the actual topic:
1) the title of this thread (more philosophical - like "what is the role of the christian church in society" type stuff. . .

or

2) should the state continue to outlaw gay marriage? (this one would be more technical and legal I think)

or

3) something else related that you think would be better?

Let me know which one, and if you want to debate me, or someone else.

Thanks, looking forward to it. Oh and don't worry about having to post 30 times a day. That is a reason why we have formal debates - so people can take time to present decent arguments without having to reply to 30 people.

scigirl

Dr Rick · 08-04-2002, 06:29 AM

GeoTheo and scigirl it is, then.

I'm in favor of a debate focused upon "Does Christianity promote gay and lesbian bigotry?", but if you two wish to argue something else along those lines, please let me know.

Once the specifics have been finalized, we'll open up the FD & D forum to the both of you.

Good luck. Remember to post on topic and stay civil; the forum is brilliantly but tightly moderated, so no ad hominems or off topic posts, please.

Rick, moderator of FD & D

scigirl · 08-04-2002, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbochnermd:
I'm in favor of a debate focused upon "Does Christianity promote gay and lesbian bigotry?", but if you two wish to argue something else along those lines, please let me know.

I am also in favor of that topic.

What say you, GeoTheo?

scigirl

Bree · 08-04-2002, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by St. Robert:

2. Telling homosexuals that God accepts their choice to participate in homosexual relationships.

What church does this kind of thing? I have never heard of one, ever! Lead the way, I'd love to ask them how they get around the Leviticus passages that say a homosexual is not fit to live!

Rick - if this formal debate goes through, will there be a thread opened for peanut gallery commentary?

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]

Dr Rick · 08-04-2002, 11:02 AM

...Right <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000902" target="_blank">here</a> on your forum, Bree, and the debate, once it starts, can be found <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000013" target="_blank">here</a>

Both scigirl and GeoTheo are now authorized to begin posting in the FD & D.

Rick

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]

Viti · 08-04-2002, 11:07 AM

Quote:

I also would like to say that there really is no big focus on homosexuality within the Church.

My 11 yr old niece and I had a long conversation where she informed me that, according to her church leaders and SS teachers, homosexuals are evil and do everything they can to lure kids into their chosen perverted lifestyles. She was terrified that someone would try to "get her" when we stopped at a coffee shop in what her mother had called "queer town" (somewhere in Denver). She then declined a trip to Disneyland I offered because they "support gays" and try to spread bad sexual messages in their movies to take people from God.

So maybe there is no focus on homosexuality in YOUR church, but there is in many others....especially of the Souther Baptist flavor

Arrowman · 08-04-2002, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
I would like to debate the question posed by the title of this thread with Scigirl or somebody else in a formal debate, but I think Arrowman kind of already stated my position....

I also asked you a specific question about how homosexuality is a "choice". I'd really like an answer. Because I've asked that question before of Christians, and never I've never received a straight answer.

To save you the trouble of finding the post (which was directly under the one to which you responded

) I'll repeat it here:

Quote:

So, Theo, if you were facing a future with no prospects of a heterosexual relationship, you'd start bonking guys just so you'd get some. Is that what you're saying? I doubt it.

You've asserted that homosexuality is a choice, but you haven't backed this up. I've seen Christians do this before.

The closest you've come is this suggestion that "homosexual sex is better than none" - which is clearly wrong on two counts:
1. For most heterosexual men, the preferences would be
a. Heterosexual sex.
b. Daylight.
c. Celibacy.
d. Daylight.
- Homosexual sex just ain't on the list of options.
2. The implication is that homosexual men are butt-ugly losers who can't get a woman. Again, clearly false.

So, Theo - put your money where your assertion is.

Please explain, in specific terms, how homosexuality is a choice - why it is attractive etc, and in particular why homosexuals choose that orientation over heterosexual relationships.

Your time starts now.

nyx · 08-04-2002, 05:36 PM

O.K. The original question was regarding Christianity, homosexuality and bigotry, right?

If one accepts the Nt as doctrine, then I don't see how it is possible to believe that Christianity accepts homosexuality. In fact, quite the opposite is true.

I suppose I could attempt to explain my own heterosexual promiscuity away too. Why bother?

Nyx

Waning Moon Conrad · 08-05-2002, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Hello bunnytoes,

David: People should oppose all anti-gay rights efforts, and oppose all forms of discrimation against gays and lesbians.

Nonetheless, the church has the right and the responsibility to uphold principles of morality and criticizing the moral choices of individuals within society. The church must act independently from the government and society, without hindrance from either.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

Greetings,

The church gets to dictate to society and the government but never has to answer to society or the government.

David, when this happens, when churches get to do whatever they want without hindrance from government or society then we get shenanigans with altar boys happening in the catholic church and the despicable and cowardly cover ups that occur.

We get thousands of British orphans being sent off to Australia or Canada to be looked after by the Christian Brothers. To be raped, abused and denied education.

When the church has the right to criticize without hindrance from society - hindrance necessarily including criticism and answerability -

We find the holy church of Jesus in the person of Fred Phelps and his gaggle of sub-sentient scum devoting a website to rejoicing in the torture and murder of Matthew Shepard. They have a counter showing us how many days Matthew Shepard has been in hell for. They have a little picture with agonized screaming effects.

Adult humans devoting a website to the ongoing humiliation of a decent human and his family because he was gay.

If they are above criticism then is this not their right and responsibility as active members of the body of Christ.

Are Fred Phelps and his henchmen part of the church? Who gets to decide? They believe that the opinions of Paul are the word of God, they believe that the Council of Nicea wasn't in it for the politics. They do some ministering. Do they need apostolic succession?

And look at the behaviour of those with apostolic succession traceable in an unbroken lineage back to Christ......altar boys......need I say more?

Just who is this church that gets to criticize the behaviour of consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes and their own lives?

Who are these people to set standards of morality and judge anyone at all?

Who?

Long Life & Good Health to All

08-04-2002, 11:02 AM	#185
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	...Right <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000902" target="_blank">here</a> on your forum, Bree, and the debate, once it starts, can be found <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000013" target="_blank">here</a> Both scigirl and GeoTheo are now authorized to begin posting in the FD & D. Rick [ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

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08-04-2002, 06:29 AM	#182
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	GeoTheo and scigirl it is, then. I'm in favor of a debate focused upon "Does Christianity promote gay and lesbian bigotry?", but if you two wish to argue something else along those lines, please let me know. Once the specifics have been finalized, we'll open up the FD & D forum to the both of you. Good luck. Remember to post on topic and stay civil; the forum is brilliantly but tightly moderated, so no ad hominems or off topic posts, please. Rick, moderator of FD & D

08-04-2002, 05:36 PM	#188
nyx Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: US Posts: 76	O.K. The original question was regarding Christianity, homosexuality and bigotry, right? If one accepts the Nt as doctrine, then I don't see how it is possible to believe that Christianity accepts homosexuality. In fact, quite the opposite is true. I suppose I could attempt to explain my own heterosexual promiscuity away too. Why bother? Nyx

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