Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ennazus · 09-07-2003, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001
Well, I don't think the gods of any mythology (which category does include Yahweh and Allah) are the creators of the universe...just that they exercise influence on the events of the world.

Why do they have power to exercise influence on events in a universe which they did not create? If they do possess this power, what criteria do they use to decide the outcome of events?

Ojuice5001 · 09-07-2003, 04:23 PM

If Christina cares about both the humans who were involved, and the gods who were, she should thank both. As I find most speeches of this kind do. Same with people whose kid jumped out the window, although the version you hear in the paper might only include Yahweh. Perhaps the reason for this is that Yahweh is more well-known than some anonymous "neighbor"; surely the same thing might happen if the mayor had a minor role in the kid being rescued, and the neighbor had a major one.

Doctor X · 09-07-2003, 04:27 PM

OJ5001:

You then run right into the evil, incompetent, and/or irrelevant choices. If he is unaware of the fire he becomes incompetent if not irrelevant.

Fire is not that "quick" of a way to go. Thus, if he wanted the four to die then he becomes evil.

Anyways, if he cannot influence events as you suggest he falls right back to irrelevant.

Not exactly a deity to sacrifice the first born to. . . .

--J.D.

Ennazus · 09-07-2003, 04:30 PM

Yes, the winners usually do thank god AND family. God first, of course. I'd rather just keep god out of the equation and concentrate on human assistance, human intervention and human worth. Deities, any deities, get more credit than they deserve-- This is my oh-so-humble opinion on the saving children and shedding pounds issue both.

Magus55 · 09-07-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
So I'm at work this morning, and I run into a woman who I've seen regularly for the last couple years. I remember back about a year and a half, she started exercising on her breaks, and she already worked a lot in her work. She also stopped the double orders of fries, etc. So you see her all the time walking, or climbing steps...You think, "great, good for her!".

You'd be wrong. We ran into each other in the hall, and I congratulated her, because she looked like she easily lost 80 pounds or more, and looked pretty fit. She thanked me, and we talked randomly about something or the other, idle chitchat. So I asked her what all she did to lose it so fast(I already knew she was working out like mad, but hey, I thought I'd giver her props for the work. She says: "Prayer!". She then went on for about 10 minutes how god had answered her prayers, and she had a lot of people praying for her. I stood there stunned. I mean, I'm thinking the whole time, "Gee, do you think it could have been the 3 or 4 hours of workout each day, and not eating crap?" I was dumbfounded, she actually believed that it wasn't all her hard work, it was her church praying for her. I am so totally awe-struck by the stupidity. Anyway, just needed to vent, because I think the world is losing to this crap....

I seriously don't think God pulled fat off her body, but God could have given her the motivation to stick with her routine without giving up and getting discouraged. Why do you people care so much if someone thanks God ? Its none of your business, so why don't you just leave people alone and let them believe what they want.

Ojuice5001 · 09-07-2003, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Suzanne**Atheist
Why do they have power to exercise influence on events in a universe which they did not create?

Chance events, basically. Some events are such that, if you consider only natural factors, they could happen in one of several ways, and in that kind of event, the gods' will determines which one actually happens.

Quote:

If they do possess this power, what criteria do they use to decide the outcome of events? [/B]

All kinds of things really. Human welfare is only one; they also set things up to favor the warm-blooded animals they like, or their ideas about what the world should be like (some of them moral, and some amoral), or their need to have the spiritual properties of the world favor their own well-being and power.

Magus55 · 09-07-2003, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Suzanne**Atheist
Yes, this was terrible--as are the other "miracle" stories.

We had one in our area not too long ago. Four of five children perished in a fire and people on the news praised god that the one was spared. Wonderful that she was alive, yes. But it seems like god could have just waved his magic fingers and put out the fire to save them all.

Giving god "credit" for the return of an abducted child is just an extra kick in the stomach for the families of the still-missing children. Must they pray harder? What can they do to get god to return THEIR child? What a horrible, additional burden to place on these families.

Maybe other families don't believe God can do it. Maybe they are atheist and don't have any faith. Faith can make things happen, no faith leaves you on your own.

Doctor X · 09-07-2003, 04:39 PM

Quote:

. . . but God could have given her the motivation to stick with her routine without giving up and getting discouraged.

Nice to know my predictions remain flawless. . . .

Quote:

Why do you people care so much if someone thanks God ?

Why does someone care so much that others find it irrational? Perhaps it hits just a mite to close to home, so to write.

Quote:

Its none of your business, so why don't you just leave people alone and let them believe what they want.

The propagation of irrational thought diminishes mankind as a whole.

--J.D.

Ojuice5001 · 09-07-2003, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
OJ5001:

You then run right into the evil, incompetent, and/or irrelevant choices. If he is unaware of the fire he becomes incompetent if not irrelevant.

Fire is not that "quick" of a way to go. Thus, if he wanted the four to die then he becomes evil.

Anyways, if he cannot influence events as you suggest he falls right back to irrelevant.

Not exactly a deity to sacrifice the first born to. . . .

--J.D.

True, but this is only one situation. Do you suggest that a god has to be good, competent, and relevant in every possible situation before humans should worship him? If that same god had prevented a similar disaster happening right next door to me (perhaps in such a way that no human had a clue that there was any kind of threat of fire), should I still care too much about something that happened in a city hundreds of miles away?

Magus55 · 09-07-2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X

The propagation of irrational thought diminishes mankind as a whole.

--J.D.

Mankind is already diminishing on its own. And its only irrational to those who don't believe in it. Billions would claim it perfectly rational, so what makes you more qualified to determine belief being irrational? You are a human like everyone else, so what makes you better?

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09-07-2003, 04:23 PM	#22
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	If Christina cares about both the humans who were involved, and the gods who were, she should thank both. As I find most speeches of this kind do. Same with people whose kid jumped out the window, although the version you hear in the paper might only include Yahweh. Perhaps the reason for this is that Yahweh is more well-known than some anonymous "neighbor"; surely the same thing might happen if the mayor had a minor role in the kid being rescued, and the neighbor had a major one.

09-07-2003, 04:27 PM	#23
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	OJ5001: You then run right into the evil, incompetent, and/or irrelevant choices. If he is unaware of the fire he becomes incompetent if not irrelevant. Fire is not that "quick" of a way to go. Thus, if he wanted the four to die then he becomes evil. Anyways, if he cannot influence events as you suggest he falls right back to irrelevant. Not exactly a deity to sacrifice the first born to. . . . --J.D.

09-07-2003, 04:30 PM	#24
Ennazus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Chicago 'burbs Posts: 1,242	Yes, the winners usually do thank god AND family. God first, of course. I'd rather just keep god out of the equation and concentrate on human assistance, human intervention and human worth. Deities, any deities, get more credit than they deserve-- This is my oh-so-humble opinion on the saving children and shedding pounds issue both.

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