Amos

The unforgivable sin is committed when religious believers try to become Christians and do the knocking themselves in which case they are given a scorpion instead of a fish.

Once you've been given a scorpion you can't really go back to God and tell him to give you a fish, and so, many people will walk away from their scorpion and some of them end up here complaining about the injustice of God.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Echo

Some Protestant Christians consider miracles that occur in a Catholic context (eucharistic miracles, miracles accompanying Marian apparitions, etc) as works of the devil. If these miracles are really works of the Spirit and protestants are erroneously attributing them to the devil, would that then be considered an unforgivable sin according to the biblical definition as inspired by the example of the Pharisees?

Any thoughts?

HelenM

Interesting question

No, I don't think that would be considered the unforgivable sin because that 'sin' specifically saying that what Jesus did was done by the power of the devil.

Therefore those who said it, were in effect denying who Jesus was.

Protestants who are mistaken about the source of Catholic 'miracles' aren't saying that Jesus did miracles by the power of the devil. They still believe Jesus is God and did miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. So I think that's different and is a mistake that doesn't imply they've rejected Jesus as God. Therefore it's not unforgivable. Or, that's my opinion, anyway.

take care
Helen

agapeo

Amos -- You're not really serious, are you? In case you are -- Are you thinking of Luke 11:9-13? If you are then I suggest you re-read it. Or at least tell me what version you are reading so I can try to understand where you're coming from.

In any case . . .
How does one who lacks belief in God complain about the injustice of God? Oh nevermind that's off-topic. But think about it nevertheless.

Amos

Oh but most, or all, atheists who visit here have a story to tell and did not just walk away from cold religion but from their idea of salvation in which they had an intimate relationship with God. Many feel betrayed and are seeking to be set free from the past.

Yes Luke 11 is OK but please look at the preamble that begins with Luke 5 where a visitation occurs during the night when we are not consciously able to open a door and notice the persistence of this visitor and how the door is opened to receive what we need (verse 8).

Also go to Rev.3:20 and look at the distinction made in Jn.1:13 between begotten by God and from carnal desire. I use the NAB and the word "but" is used to make this point. Jn.1:13 goes like this "who were begotten not by blood, nor by carnal desire, nor by man's willing it, but by God."

Naturally, the scorpion is not from God and this is where the virgin rebirth makes the difference that comes as a thief in the night. It is also where Catholics are different from protestants.

St. Robert

How can a person be forgiven, if they don't want to be forgiven?

agapeo

Forgiveness is not necessarily dependent on the recipient, but the forgiver. It can also be granted by a third party. For instance: When JC was upon the cross he asked God to forgive those who crucified Him ". . . for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34)I don't see any indication in that passage that anyone asked for it. Otoh one can argue there's no indication that they received it. But then JC did have confidence that his prayers would be answered and he did state on other occassions that we have the power to forgive sins.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: agapeo ]</p>

agapeo

Originally posted by Amos:
Oh, I'm sure they all do but not necessarily the identical one.
That's an assumption on your part. How do you know they all had "an intimate relationship with God."?
I don't know this to be true. It could be but I'm not familar with each and every participant on this Board. Some perhaps have not taken it personal at all. It could be for most a logical and reasonable decision on their part.
Will do when time permits. Thanks for your reply.

HelenM

Exactly - which is why, theologically speaking, there is more to 'forgiveness' than simply "I'm not mad at you anymore". It doesn't make sense to think we can stop someone not being angry with us, but it does make sense to think in terms of "you can give me the key that unlocks the door but I can choose not to use it, or to stay in here even if someone unlocks the door for me".

The Bible talks in terms of people being slaves to sin and having a debt that needs to be paid. Bible forgiveness 'costs' more than humans can pay. It's not just an emotional thing.

take care
Helen
p.s. actually the 3rd party thing only works cuz all sin is against God...imo...

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Starboy

How about to pose as an open and helpful person but when confronted with hard questions equivocate, deceive and deflect instead of being frank, honest and meeting them head on.

Starboy