diana

Nectaris,

In the window where you compose your post, click the <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=ubb_code_page" target="_blank">UBB Code is enabled</a> button for info on this quoting thing.

spurly,

It may be said that I am "created" in my father's (and mother's) image. Because I happen to look like them and act like them to any degree doesn't mean they have a high view of me.

If my father set up a system where I was to be punished if I run into traffic, then when I did it, he punished himself to save me from his punishment, I wouldn't think he had a high view of me; I'd think he was mental.

If my parents told me from the moment I was born how sinful and unworthy of life I am, and threatened me constantly with eternal damnation, it really wouldn't matter how much lip-service they give to convince my how much they love me--I'm not going to believe it, because I do not equate love with constant debasement.

So the question before the court then, is this: were we really made in the image of God? Or did mankind create Xn dogma so as to answer this philosophical question?

I understand you believe God came first, but this is not the forum to simply state that belief as though it were fact.

I think he bears our stamp. If you're going to get away from the problems presented by Xn doctrine--such as God's ongoing effort to make sure we never forget how low and unworthy we are, to destroy our self-worth and crush our spirits--you have to rationalize away that part of it.

I realize you were answering a later comment, but I'm curious how you would answer the initial post.

d

HelenM

He might say that

God A: A god who punishes those who transgress in life for all eternity in a pit of fiery hell or some other nasty place.

is a misleading characterization if it's supposed to be the God of Christianity.

He might rather say the God of Christianity is the one who saves everyone who comes to Him for salvation from eternal hell, believing He is able to do that on the based of what Jesus did for them. They don't have to cross a burning field. They don't have to get partway burned up. Because God offers total forgiveness.

The strength & power of Christianity is that you don't have to be 'good enough', you only have to believe.

Describing God like God A is like describing a person by saying he was angry once and never saying when he was patient, or got over his anger etc etc. It's either a 'particularly warped viewpoint' of the God described in the Bible, imo - or it's a rather uninformed description, based on little knowledge. To meaningfully compare 'Gods' one needs to start with a much more accurate and unbiased description than that.

Anyway I'm not interested in discussing how Christians can't agree about God is or what Christianity or salvation is anyway, and who cares if He has some supposedly good attributes, it doesn't make up for hell etc etc. None of those things make it justifiable to feign a comparison of the God of two different belief systems by giving a 'totally warped' description of one of them. (I wouldn't know about the other one). The comparison is invalidated by its inaccuracy, imo.

Helen

diana

Helen,

I have read several arguments that the God the bible doesn't really threaten eternal fire and brimstone, where the worm dieth not, for unbelievers, but I also know the bible says otherwise. I don't know exactly what those who don't believe in the biblical hell do with those verses, but they're still there, and I have never found any convincing reason to ignore them.

For this reason, the comparison is a valid one, imo.

Perhaps it would make you more comfortable if he'd said the first was the fundamentalist Xn God?

d

HelenM

Hi diana,

What I'm saying is that imo it's an unreasonable distortion to say the God of Christianity punishes people with hell without also saying what is equally Biblical; that He offers them forgiveness and eternal life instead through faith in Jesus. No burning field for those who believe.

With all due respect I wasn't trying to get around the hell passages in the Bible...I was saying not to divorce them from the teaching about God's forgiveness.

Helen

[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Hawkingfan

If God was truly "loving" and "forgiving", then there would be no need for bloodshed. Pagans have a better sense of forgiveness than God. If no human sacrifice took place (Jesus--which supposedly took place so we would have to stop sacrificing innocent animals), then we would all be going to hell. And Jesus wasn't exacly all that willing to undergo human sacrifice for his bloodthirsty father. He said, "Please take this cup from me," and "Why has though forsaken me?" These are words spoken by a man who clearly would rather have sins taken away by some other means.

Nectaris

I’ve been away for a few days, so I hadn’t noticed that anyone had responded to this. . .

Actually, I think the exact quote was that, well let me look it up (from the KJV):
Genesis 1:26: And God said let US make man in OUR image, and after OUR likeness. . .(Capitalization is my own)

The creator Elohim was actually a series of seven generations of the god EL, thus we are created in an image of those seven gods. That’s really not on point w/this argument, though.

If we were created so well in the first place, why do I have to be redeemed? Remember that sin is an invention of religion, w/out religion there is no need for redemption for sin.

So your god created the sin and had himself crucified in human form to solve a problem of his own creation. Is that what your argument is? It would be like me taking credit for saving you from having your foot stepped on by taking my foot of your toes. I get no blame for creating the problem in the first place, but all the credit in the world after the fact. I have a much higher view of humanity in that there is no need for redemption in the first place. Humans are not born “evil” or with the desire to do bad things.

Which is hardly an impressive distinction, since you only recognize one god. This would mean that your savior is also the cruelest one you know, since you have no other to which you can compare him.


Or maybe it’s just a fun intellectual exercise for me. I think of the Hebrew and Christian mythology as I would any other mythology. I’m just curious as how one set of mythos has survived to the modern day, and why the myths of the Abrahamic God(s) are the one that survived in the form of Christianity and Islam. I think the threat of eternal damnation played an important role.

As someone else has pointed out, the Judaism of the bible, does not preach eternal suffering for non-believers, but that all people ended up in a place of rest known as Sheol—a place where they no longer had to toil away their lives in service of YHWH. I think this explains why Judaism is the least popular of the three. If the Jews are right, than it doesn’t really matter if I worship another god/religion, because I’ll still end up in Sheol.

The Christian will tell you of a place of eternal torment, because it’s a good selling point. Hence the reason that Pascal’s Wager is one of the major arguments that Christians use to this day. It’s flawed, but still used.


Dave

Nectaris

Hi Helen,

The burning fields will not burn the believers. So your salvation from the pain of the long walk is offered by accepting Ahura Mazda, much like accepting Jesus as your savior does the trick for the Christians. It is only the non-believers and unrepentant sinners that will suffer and to a degree to match their level of sinfulness. So Hitler would burn a lot, but Abraham Lincoln not so much. No matter how much you burn, though, you will get eternal rewards.

Both gods offer eternal salvation/reward, whatever you want to call. Only one places a condition upon it.

Dave

diana

Dave,

Can you please post your references for this comment?

Thanks.

d

emur

It would be misleading if God had nothing to do with the existence of hell, yet saw it and wanted to deliver people from it. But Christian dogma states that God created it all and must have his pound of flesh because of our inability to live up to his holy standards. Enter Jesus, sent by God to provide the way out of the problem thru faith in him and the forgiveness supplied as a result.

The problem with this is...? God created the whole mess in the first place. Hell was created by God. Infinite punishment for finite sins. But it's just, because of God's holiness.

One of the most damnable doctrines taught in Christianity is the holiness of God.

There is no more loving God where holiness is there to grab its pound of flesh.

Mel

Hawkingfan

I think it was diana who said it best in another thread that we are not created in the image of god, but rather god was created in OUR image. (but it was in the context of god bearing our "stamp"--the stamp of human imagination).