brighid

Val,
You are sincerely nit picking I think, but this is your prerogative and you are fully entitled to express your opinion. As much as you or I do not like that people put faith in mystical powers – it is not the responsibility of those who coined the phrase to police those who may interpret it in ways that don’t seem conducive to rational thought. Nor should one have to carefully construct a phrase, a mantra or any other form of speech because SOME people will interpret things by their personal preferences – and therefore incorrectly or differently from the original meaning. There are many phrases that although benign in character, are taken WAY out of context by those who wish to do so. People ignore the rational meaning of things all the time. It is perfectly rational to me (as a witch) to see the Three Fold Law as an analogous rule to be taken metaphorically. I don’t believe in sky fairies and powers beyond those of the natural world. However, because other pagans DO view the world as mystical and supernatural and their interpretation reflects that says NOTHING about the actual phrase. And this is their right and I would not choose to stifle their thought or expression because it differs from my interpretation. I may not prefer it and I may not even like it, but I must protect their right to interpret things any way they (or you) wish. And as you are, I would even argue it when I find it to be lacking. However, I personally find it irrelevant that another pagan believes in mystical realms and I do not and therefore we have a completely different view of witchcraft and the Three Fold Law.

The distinct difference between the Christian concept of deeds and belief = free passage to heaven or hell and the Three Fold Law are indeed VERY different because of their context. The Three Fold Law deals with reality and acting good to please a god to get into heaven and avoid punishment is not dealing with reality. One is about personal responsibility and the natural and foreseeable consequences of any action, positive or negative and the other – well I think we can at least agree that it’s about something different. One may read into that phrase as one wishes, but because Wicca and Paganism have no dogma and allow for the free and creative interpretation of all possible tenants and rules one MAY interpret this phrase and ALL things in any number of ways. As has been stated multiple times by multiple pagans on this board – it is NOT a mathematical formula. Perhaps a better wording would be – Be careful what you do and say for their may be many unpleasant consequences and your good deeds will be repaid as well. My personal preference is the more poetic and concise version.

And it is certainly not irrational or superstitious to believe that all actions have consequences whether positive or negative and often times those consequences are greater than the original deed, whether those consequences are three times the magnitude or ½ the magnitude makes no difference.

You follow the rule – treat others as you wish to be treated – although, like every human being I am sure you sometimes fail to do so in every instance. You treat others well because there are consequences to treating others poorly and there are benefits to treating others well. Often time you reap benefits that would not have otherwise been achieved had you not done a certain action and because of the possible consequences, as an ethically minded person, you are careful what you do and say because the ramifications can be far reaching. The Three Fold Rule does not seek to pin down a definable and accurate sum for every action taken. In my opinion, ANYONE who thinks otherwise is foolish – but again this is their right. In the end, any word, phrase or manner of expression can and may be interpreted in a number of different ways depending on the subjective preference of any given person. Pagans do not argue from authority and no phrase, rule or mantra is mandatory and most pagans do not expect or desire that others agree point by point in regards to their traditions, belief system or ritualistic practices. So, can we agree that the Three Fold Rule is not a dogmatic, unbending equation to be applied to every action, but only a figure of speech employed to remind one that one should be careful with their thoughts and actions in order to avoid harmful consequences to ones self or to others? This is in fact the heart of the Rule.

Blessed Be,
Brighid

Mad Kally

I don't think Val is nit picking at all. I've been following this thread and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with rational thought. If it does to you, that's great. Try as I might, I don't think it will ever make any sense to me. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, as you are entitled to yours.

brighid

Awhhhhhh .... just call me sensitive I guess! I suppose I should have added a smiley face, as that is how I meant it - sorry for the miscommunication!

Brighid

jpbrooks

I too feel a deep connection to the natural world. In fact, it was that emotional connection that prompted my interest in science. But I soon found, to my dismay, that science eschewed such emotional connections in the interest of objectivity. I eventually came to accept that aspect of science as necessary, but always felt that it was "unnatural".

jpbrooks

Perhaps the reason why Paganism doesn't seem to make sense to people of a more "rational" orientation is that Paganism views the world "holistically". What I mean by that is that Paganism doesn't exclude or separate considerations about the subject(s) who is/are viewing reality when thinking and deliberating about the world. For Paganism everything seems to be ultimately connected to someone's personal experience. Paganism wouldn't view logic and science, for example, as studies that are ultimately independent from considerations about psychology, spirituality, etc.. Thus a Pagan interpretation of a(n) historical event, for instance, would probably seem quite "confused" to non-Pagans.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: jpbrooks ]</p>

brighid

John -

I think paganism is confusing to the general public simply because it IS confusing, even to the Pagan. It is also difficult to pin down an authoritative definition or define traditions, practices and beliefs within a system that encourages and is built upon free and creative interpretation. And Paganism definitely takes a holistic view of the world and the idea that everything is connected. And if the Big Bang is correct (which I believe it is) then we are indeed made up of the same things and originate from the same time, place and materials. I remember reading something a while back about the Cosmic Web, but I can’t recall much information on it at the moment. It showed this awesome web of interconnected energy that flows through the entire universe – but don’t quote me on that as my memory fails me at the moment. Perhaps that is the the universal energy we are trying to connect with - I don't know.

I think that science as a discipline needs to maintain a certain distance from the awesomeness of the world and our universe in order to be objective and provide society with the best information science can determine at the time. I have an enormous amount of respect for the scientific community and it’s findings. I prefer scientists to politicians any day – especially in the search for truth. I think that many people feel there is a cold and distant feel to much of science, but I know so many men and women in the scientific field that have an absolute awe and reverence for the world we live in that is far from cold or distant. I think often time they have a greater passion for nature, as evidenced in their work perhaps even more than the average person of average Pagan. They have the same sort of “religious” reverence that Einstein does: “My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”

Those of us who aren’t as gifted in the areas of scientific inquiry, or even possess the mental capability to tackle the mysteries of the universe have found a certain natural comfort in the pagan path. I know that is why I have always been drawn in that direction. Of course, that isn’t saying that the Pagan path is the correct one for all people who find themselves in a similar situation as you and I and others in this forum.

I have found that Paganism allows me to maintain my atheistic philosophy, remain true to the scientific community I have such respect for, but to fill that emotional void I feel with a lack of tradition or a method to embrace the connectedness I feel to life around me. It requires no belief in a deity(s) and allows my creative energy to flow in such a way that I can personalize and for all intents and purposes create my own “religious” tradition. Although religious in not quite the word I feel appropriate, unless it is defined similar to the religious spirit of Einstein or something closer to Buddhism.

I feel better when I am involved with the natural world. To practice Tai Chi in a meadow, or meditate on the beaches of Maui, or simply to take a hike through a forest makes me feel the most alive and human. The quiet and serenity and glory of nature is uplifting and euphoric. It’s awesome powers to create and destroy are unbelievable. Sometimes there is nothing worse than being cooped up in an office with no windows, no natural sun light, no air and my computer screen!

Brighid

brighid

“Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated.The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is.” – an excerpt from: A speech by Albert Einstein to the German League of Human Rights, Berlin, in the autumn of 1932. This short speech appears in the Appendix of Einstein by Michael White and John Gribbin, Dutton, Penguin Books USA Inc., New York, 1994, p. 262.

Brighid

Valmorian

I have no idea how YOU interpret the threefold rule. All I can say is that I've seen it interpreted in the literal sense a LOT.

What I have to ask is, how do you know the threefold rule is supposed to be taken figuratively? I see this to be no different than the liberal Christian who takes the tale of Noah figuratively.

In either case, the claim, or story, is false. And as I've said.. oh, what, about 6 times now, I have no problem with people taking the threefold rule figuratively. The problem is that many DON'T. Even those that claim to I'll find often start referring to it literally.

brighid

Val,

I know it can be taken figuratively or literally because I can – I am free. There is no authoritative body or disciplinary group that is going to cast me out, or any other pagan because we see the world realistically and not mystically. It is our prerogative, just as it is the prerogative of any one else to envision and interpret their journey as they see fit at any point on their path. And I am sorry, after the very thorough explanation I have given about how I personally interpret the Three Fold Rule, that you have been unable to ascertain my personal view. Perhaps I have not been accurately communicative and for this I apologize.

I think that so many people have been overly conditioned by Christianity and it’s arguments from authority, divine inspiration and infallibility that it is difficult to conceive that a religious philosophy or group can have an either/or interpretation of anything with no set dogmas or requirements for belief.

Please understand that there is nothing formal stopping a Pagan from interpreting the Three Fold Rule or the Wiccan Rede or anything else in any manner OTHER than that which that particular practitioner or group desires to interpret those things.

Each of us has been, at one point or another, on a part of their journey where they have believed in a mystical world. Perhaps, like myself you were indoctrinated into a mythology by your parents, or society at large has encouraged your participation in a religious group. That part of your journey is an essential part to where you are at this moment in time. As a pagan, I do not begrudge others their journey or that they may not, for whatever reason, have progressed down the road I feel is the most rational and proper.

I personally feel it is intellectually dishonest to believe in an actual God and Goddess, fairies or Unicorns, seven headed dragons, etc. I remain open to any credible evidence that would prove otherwise. I feel I don’t have any real answers to life or it’s mysteries but some educated guesses that may be proven correct or incorrect depending upon the advances of science. I also know that there are many people who believe I am intellectually dishonest for believing as I do – even within the Pagan movement. However, I am not going to be hunted down, harassed or burned at the stake by a Pagan. And because we insist on freedom of thought and expression we don’t like to get caught up in the – whose right, whose wrong, who has the right tradition and whose is too new. Some do – but it’s pointless.

I don’t find the Three Fold Rule to be any more superstitious or dangerous than the person interpreting it. I cannot police the world to make sure other Pagans believe as I do and frankly I would not want to. I will engage in healthy debate and respect the path others have taken, including your path. That is how it should be. I am not the steward of your intellect or your soul (if you believe in one). That is left to the individual to work out and I will not infringe upon that or force my interpretation (however rational it may be) upon any one else.

In this case, there is more than one right answer. The answer is BOTH. I am not sure why that disturbs you. There is no claim of divinity, forced conversion or this is the only way and you will pay for your infidelity by eternal punishment and torture by the gods. It just is – nothing more and nothing less.

I understand your frustration with those who will interpret this phrase and believe in Kharma or magical fairies, but again your contention should be with those people and not with how something, anything for that matter can be interpreted. Of all the pagans you have dialogued with in this particular forum, I don’t believe any have voiced opinions to the contrary. You may encounter others who you should address this issue to, however it is not to Pagans who dialogue in an atheist forum who embrace that philosophy and scientific inquiry. We are not dogmatic, we are no like the Abrahamic Theists, we have no binding creeds, we do not claim authority, we only seek to live in this world and pursue life as we see fit, to think, believe, live, love and worship freely. Therefore, we can be both, or neither without betraying our convictions.

Have a wonderful weekend and truly - without any bit of sarcasm - I have enjoyed our discussions and hopefully some positive education has come from this experience for everyone.

Brighid

Valmorian

</strong>

Oh I've been quite clear that I'm not concernedd about YOU taking the saying figuratively. I'm not saying YOU SPECIFICALLY take it literally, merely that I've noticed many who claim to take it figuratively seem to turn around and take it literally.

I wonder if they really believe the rede as a literal truth, but waffle on it when pressured because there's no evidence to support the truth of it? Pure speculation of course, on my part.

</strong>

As do I. I'm not sure what this has to do with the falsity of the threefold rule's claims.

</strong>

Well certainly, if someone decides to take the claim "Stomach Fairies cause indigestion" figuratively, and says "It's a metaphor for stomach acid" then it seems rather like common sense. That doesn't mean the statement is true, though, it would still be superstitious.

</strong>

I've never asked you to be. You seem to be reading an awful lot out of such a simple statement. I'm simply saying that the Threefold rule is not literally true. If you want to twist it such that it means something that holds a different meaning, be my guest, but that doesn't change the fact that the statement is makes is NOT literally true.

And no, I don't believe in souls. I consider them to be more superstition.


</strong>

Um, it doesn't. I've never claimed it did.

</strong>

No, it's just a claim that whatever action I perform, good or bad, will be revisited on me threefold. This is what it literally says. Interpret it differently if you like. Hell, you can interpret the Bible such that it appears to be all nice and love-filled with extra goodness, but that doesn't change the fact that many of the stories and claims in it are simply not literally true.

</strong>

If a statement is blatantly false, I'll have a contention with it being taken as a "truth". And there's some small evidence that at least one person on this forum takes the threefold rule literally at least some of the time.

In any case, the statement is at least partially at fault, since without some twisting and "creative interpretation", it's simply false.

I enjoy them to, although I do think you tend to project feelings and opinions on me that I simply don't have. I find it rather frustrating to be told that I shouldn't be critical of your interpretation of the threefold rule, particularly when I've never stated that you shouldn't interpret it any way you want!

Indeed, my only complaint is that this is a phrase that is not literally true, and point out that it is simply superstitious to believe it literally, something that you obviously agree with.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Valmorian ]</p>