Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Monkeybot · 08-19-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
Do you think she could have told me that before accepting my offer to go out?!? I thought it was clear that I was 'asking her out', but maybe I wasn't doing it properly.

Sigh.

Yeah, it would have been smart of her to mention the boyfriend thing a lot sooner. On the bright side, maybe she was so swept away by your conversations that it totally slipped her mind to mention him

Shadowy Man · 08-19-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monkeybot
On the bright side, maybe she was so swept away by your conversations that it totally slipped her mind to mention him.

I'd like to think I am that smooth, but I find it improbable.

cheetah · 08-19-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain
cheetah:

Well, I still think it is polite for a women to work the existence of a signicant other into the conversation before too long. In my mind, doing otherwise at a bar or club is essentially being deceptive in an effort to obtain attention or entertainment or drinks. To give the impression of being interested in someone (as things such as eye contact and enjoying the conversation can do) without also conveying unavailability is simply dishonest. Are you saying that it doesn't matter what the man in question wants as long as you get your conversation? You are incapable of getting someone to have a conversation with you if you reveal that you are not interested in a sex or a date?

As I've said, I typically do try to work it in, but some of the responses here have just seemed so selfish, I had to comment. And apparently, women would be incapable of getting men to have a conversation if they indicated they were uninterested in sex, based on the feedback from many men here that they are rarely if ever interested in conversation, and certainly not at a bar/club! And no, I'm not saying it doesn't matter what the man wants, I am just saying that just because he wants it doesn't mean I should abandon all hope of getting what I want. Cutting off a conversation early, alweays, because I am unavailable is simply always giving the man the advantage in his goals and always giving the woman a disadvantage in achieveing hers. In deed, what I am being told here, is that as an unavailable woman, I should NEVER get to have any conversations since I should know that they are all supposed to lead to sex and me being in one is leading them on. The only guy, I presume, that I am henceforth allowed to talk to is my own partner.

Anyway, here's what your paragraph made me think (sorry it's an old trick, but I still don't feel like them men are seeing the other side here):

Well, I still think it is polite for a man to work the lack of interest in conversation into the conversation before too long. In my mind, doing otherwise at a bar or club is essentially being deceptive in an effort to obtain sex. To give the impression of being interested in someone's conversation (as things such as eye contact and enjoying the conversation can do) without also conveying interest in sex is simply dishonest. Are you saying that it doesn't matter what the woman in question wants as long as you get your sex? You are incapable of getting someone to have sex with you if you reveal that you are not interested in a conversation?

Bible Humper · 08-19-2003, 12:17 PM

Shadowy Man, something I want to add to the advice the ladies are giving you here...

When you are opening a woman in a venue like a book store, you should strike up a conversation in as neutral a way as possible at first as a RULE OF THUMB. You wait until the initial discomfort of interacting with a total stranger wears off before FULLY interacting. What you do is open in a way that she has no clue if you are trying to interact with her or are just a talkative guy with something to say and she is the one who happened to be there to hear it.

Like if you hop onto the subway and you see a good target sitting somewhere, you could walk over and sit somewhere close and just open your newspaper. Then you can open with something interesting in there in a way like you are just saying out loud what you're thinking. "Hrumph, there's a pet psychic coming to Toronto. He says that he can read your animal's aura!?" She is probably not going to open up totally yet, so wait for whatever short response she gives.... "Yeah, but I don't know about this stuff, do you think this is real or what?" Blah blah blah.

If she seems like a cold fish, don't give up! Just continue probing for something that will encourage her to respond. People find it very difficult to be outright rude with you if you are doing this right. Make sure you aren't coming across as desperate for rapport!

Most women are real fascinated by the paranormal, destiny, etc so this kind of stuff has a good chance of getting her talking. Make sure you wait until she opens up before turning your body completely towards her, establishing consistent eye contact, and giving her all your attention. Remember, she shouldn't be thinking "This guy wanted to talk to me, and used this topic to get me talking", but instead "He made a remark about that topic and we just started conversing".

Learn the Duchenne smile. If you're nervous interacting with her and try to smile to convey warmth, it is going to give the impression of insincerity unless you do it right. You have to contract the muscles around your eyes to fake a genuine smile well enough that she doesn't intuitively know it was forced.

Learn how to fluff talk. Practice asking questions that can't be answered with a single word, but instead require her to think about what she is saying and elaborate on. Try to lead any topics regarding what she likes or is interested in towards feelings type talk. Like if you find the girl in your example at the book store browsing mysteries, ask her what it is about mysteries that she likes, and then after she's done talking about that, ask her how she feels when she finishes a brilliant new mystery by her favourite author. Take the lead and follow any tangents her responses offer, and get her talking all about this subject she loves so much

Never talk about crap like work, politics, atheism, George Bush, or all the rest of that garbage.

By the time you open them up and have some good interaction going, you're well on your way. Gotta go, see y'all later.

cheetah · 08-19-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
Here's a story of a woman's failure to work in her significant other soon enough.

One day I was in the laundry room of my apartment building and I met a young woman there. We exchanged a few words and I went on my way. I saw her again on campus once, and spoke briefly with her again, getting her to mention that she lives alone (not with a husband/boyfriend).

I then encountered her on the way in to my department and we shared the ten minute walk talking about our research, etc. A nice talk and I thought she was receptive, but I missed my opportunity to ask her out. So, I was determined to ask her out the very next time I saw her.

I bumped into her again in the lobby of my building and chatted briefly, ending the conversation with my asking her if she would like to go out for coffee or some such (I don't remember exactly what I said but I thought it was pretty clearly an asking out proposal). She at first declined, and I said "that's fine.. I just thought I'd ask" and was nice about it. She then appeared to think again and said that she would and gave me her email address so we could arrange a time.

When I emailed her asking when would be good, she included in her email this sentence: "Well next week isn't good because my boyfriend is coming into town."

Do you think she could have told me that before accepting my offer to go out?!? I thought it was clear that I was 'asking her out', but maybe I wasn't doing it properly.

Sigh.

I will admit that the "asking out-er" is walking a fine line between being too aggressive and not being clear enough. But, I can tell you that she *might* not have known. It wasn't until this thread that I found out that EVERY conversation I have with a male is intended to lead to sex or a date. Believe me, this is news to a lot of us...

brighid · 08-19-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

And, will most likely be gay. Tough luck, ladies

Hahah ... oh thank goodness I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.!

Not if all you damned straight men would start watching Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and take some hints!

But hey - that works for gay guys so if straight guys would just follow suit they would get laid more often! Straight girls and gay guys do like many of the same things in a man.

Brighid

Shadowy Man · 08-19-2003, 12:43 PM

Thanks for the input, Bible Humper.

I'm actually pretty decent at starting up conversations with random people. I've had fairly good success at that. I've just not had great success at having them actually be interested in me.

Quote:

Originally posted by cheetah
It wasn't until this thread that I found out that EVERY conversation I have with a male is intended to lead to sex or a date. Believe me, this is news to a lot of us...

Not every conversation. Just many of the ones started by complete strangers. But I wouldn't worry about it. It just means that you are being approached by healthy men who think that you are in some way attractive.

It's the ones who don't know how to interact with you in an intelligent, respectful manner that you need to watch out for.

tronvillain · 08-19-2003, 12:50 PM

cheetah:

Quote:

As I've said, I typically do try to work it in, but some of the responses here have just seemed so selfish, I had to comment. And apparently, women would be incapable of getting men to have a conversation if they indicated they were uninterested in sex, based on the feedback from many men here that they are rarely if ever interested in conversation, and certainly not at a bar/club! And no, I'm not saying it doesn't matter what the man wants, I am just saying that just because he wants it doesn't mean I should abandon all hope of getting what I want. Cutting off a conversation early, alweays, because I am unavailable is simply always giving the man the advantage in his goals and always giving the woman a disadvantage in achieveing hers. In deed, what I am being told here, is that as an unavailable woman, I should NEVER get to have any conversations since I should know that they are all supposed to lead to sex and me being in one is leading them on. The only guy, I presume, that I am henceforth allowed to talk to is my own partner.

Ah, but I do not think that it is at all true that men are uninterested in conversation, even at a bar or club. Also, I am not saying that women should come right out and say they are unnavailable right away; I am simply saying that they should eventually work it into the conversation before too long and see if the guy takes off or continues to chat. If they take off, is not talking to someone who was only talking to you because they thought they had a chance at getting into your pants such a big loss? Only a complete idiot would take off right away anyway: you might break up with your significant other, or you might have friends, and it never hurts just to talk to a girl you find attractive but is unnavailable. *chuckle*

Quote:

Anyway, here's what your paragraph made me think (sorry it's an old trick, but I still don't feel like them men are seeing the other side here):

I am having trouble seeing the other side, at least if the other side is where you think having a conversation with someone who might only be talking to you in an effort to have sex with you is worthwhile. If working the fact that you are in a relationship into conversation means that you don't have many converations with men, are men really worth talking to?

Quote:

Well, I still think it is polite for a man to work the lack of interest in conversation into the conversation before too long. In my mind, doing otherwise at a bar or club is essentially being deceptive in an effort to obtain sex. To give the impression of being interested in someone's conversation (as things such as eye contact and enjoying the conversation can do) without also conveying interest in sex is simply dishonest. Are you saying that it doesn't matter what the woman in question wants as long as you get your sex? You are incapable of getting someone to have sex with you if you reveal that you are not interested in a conversation?

Well, now that is just silly. Oh, I would agree with you completely if I thought that all men were only interested in sex and had zero interest in conversation or relationships, but I simply do not think that. I have no respect for men like that. Besides, conversation is a large part of how you demonstrate that you are interested in the other person and part of how you show why they should be interested in you, so the parallells of your reversal do not totally hold up.

brighid · 08-19-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Not every conversation. Just many of the ones started by complete strangers. But I wouldn't worry about it. It just means that you are being approached by healthy men who think that you are in some way attractive.

Not for you ...

I generally find it very complimentary to be approached by a man (even some of the jerks) because it at least means I am physically appealing, it's just some of the crap that comes after that is bothersome. It can quickly devolve from being a flattering compliment to quite an offensive exchange where you feel like going home, putting on your drabbest, baggiest, pair of sweats and hiding until the sun comes up.

Brighid

tronvillain · 08-19-2003, 12:55 PM

cheetah:

Quote:

I will admit that the "asking out-er" is walking a fine line between being too aggressive and not being clear enough. But, I can tell you that she *might* not have known. It wasn't until this thread that I found out that EVERY conversation I have with a male is intended to lead to sex or a date. Believe me, this is news to a lot of us...

I think that it is new to a lot of men that it is news to a lot of you. *chuckle* When we ask for you number it is almost always a signal of our interest in you, not simply an effort to be your friend. We might settle for that, but it generally isn't our first thought (there might be situations in which it is of course).

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-19-2003, 12:17 PM	#104
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Shadowy Man, something I want to add to the advice the ladies are giving you here... When you are opening a woman in a venue like a book store, you should strike up a conversation in as neutral a way as possible at first as a RULE OF THUMB. You wait until the initial discomfort of interacting with a total stranger wears off before FULLY interacting. What you do is open in a way that she has no clue if you are trying to interact with her or are just a talkative guy with something to say and she is the one who happened to be there to hear it. Like if you hop onto the subway and you see a good target sitting somewhere, you could walk over and sit somewhere close and just open your newspaper. Then you can open with something interesting in there in a way like you are just saying out loud what you're thinking. "Hrumph, there's a pet psychic coming to Toronto. He says that he can read your animal's aura!?" She is probably not going to open up totally yet, so wait for whatever short response she gives.... "Yeah, but I don't know about this stuff, do you think this is real or what?" Blah blah blah. If she seems like a cold fish, don't give up! Just continue probing for something that will encourage her to respond. People find it very difficult to be outright rude with you if you are doing this right. Make sure you aren't coming across as desperate for rapport! Most women are real fascinated by the paranormal, destiny, etc so this kind of stuff has a good chance of getting her talking. Make sure you wait until she opens up before turning your body completely towards her, establishing consistent eye contact, and giving her all your attention. Remember, she shouldn't be thinking "This guy wanted to talk to me, and used this topic to get me talking", but instead "He made a remark about that topic and we just started conversing". Learn the Duchenne smile. If you're nervous interacting with her and try to smile to convey warmth, it is going to give the impression of insincerity unless you do it right. You have to contract the muscles around your eyes to fake a genuine smile well enough that she doesn't intuitively know it was forced. Learn how to fluff talk. Practice asking questions that can't be answered with a single word, but instead require her to think about what she is saying and elaborate on. Try to lead any topics regarding what she likes or is interested in towards feelings type talk. Like if you find the girl in your example at the book store browsing mysteries, ask her what it is about mysteries that she likes, and then after she's done talking about that, ask her how she feels when she finishes a brilliant new mystery by her favourite author. Take the lead and follow any tangents her responses offer, and get her talking all about this subject she loves so much Never talk about crap like work, politics, atheism, George Bush, or all the rest of that garbage. By the time you open them up and have some good interaction going, you're well on your way. Gotta go, see y'all later.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.