hinduwoman

Mishra,
AIT hypothesis had always been a theory based on linguistic affinity alone. But recent discoveries in archeology and mitochondrial tracing proves that there was cultural continuity between the Harrappan and post-Harappan age and the last massive inlux of foreign genes happened 50,000 years ago.
More to the point, this is a matter of historical curiosity to me --- I refuse to feel guilty about what my white ancestors (if the theory is true) did to my black ones, 6000 years ago. If the theory is true I will be paying compensation to myself!

As for RSS agenda, what you have given us is what you fear. But since Rss had under Deoras actually broadened the definition of Hindus to include any Muslims or christians who accept their Hindu heritage, it would be better to understand what they are trying to do than dismiss it out of hand.

I have no interest in Manusamhita except as a historical document. However, if you ever bothered to read it yourself or compare with external sources, you will see that it is riddled with contradictions. There was an original Manu, no doubt, but after that so many people have happily edited it to suit their prejudices, that is is dangerous to affirm which manusamhita was actually followed in which age. That is not propaganda, though saying there were only two manus is laughable.

Hindus might be prigs, but they will not go on a mission to convert other people by force.

4) When you keep your mouth shut, it gives the impression that you are a 'pseudo-secular', someone who cares only for minorities because it is the fashionable thing to do so. It is only when you condemn both that one gains credibility.

there is common grounds, but unforutnately also divisons. The hate campaigns are successful precisely because there always had been schims. Denying this only gets in the way of building bridges.

Amit Misra

Caught in a pincer movement again! Poor me!
Hinduwoman wrote:
Which archaeological discover(y) and/or tracing of what mtDNA "proves" (your word) such continuity? Please note that I'm emphaticallynot contesting claims of continuity-- cultural or biological. I only want to know whether these findings are of a class with Rajaram and Jha's decipherment of the Indus valley script.
Be that is it may, I also need your input on the following:
How does cultural (and biological) continuity 'prove' (or disprove) that Aryans were not from a geographic region distinct from the Indus valley?
And, are we caught up in some kind of confusion of the main line of argument? My position is that our white/brown ancestors were of Harappan as well as non-Harappan stock. I am not aware of data that shows that the Harappan 'way of life' was the same as the Aryan. I am comfortable with the notion that urban Harappan cultures were supplanted by pastoral ones, presumably of Aryan origin. I see no 'wrong' being done to any of the players in the field. Compensation for historical (pre-historic?) wrongs is a Hindu Right rubric-- remember the Babri mosque at Ayodhya?

How are practitioners of these religions required to demonstrate their acceptance of a Hindu heritage? And what prompts Balasahab to conclude that all muslims and christians in India reject their hindu heritage? Does this rejection reside in adoption of names of arabic, persian or latin etymology? Does it matter a great deal to the idealogue that a prominent family of Lucknow is called Tewarson (derived from Tewari)? Is this family accepting or rejecting its Hindu heritage?

Manu: Prof. VS Pathak (formerly of Gorakhpur University, and still a formidable scholar) has written extensively on the Smarta tradition in Indian philosophy. He considers not only Manu, but several other smritis. See whether you can find it in your heart to "care" for the smritis as you do for the shrutis.

Yes, unlike the medieval conqueror, modern-day Hindus will not hold a sword to a prospective convert's throat. However, there have been forced conversions to Islam and hinduism on a large scale in the period following partition. Also, the shuddhi program of the Arya samaj and cohorts is as aggressively evangelical as the evangelical lutheran church!

Condemning: Yes, sure, I condemn the communal muslim, christian, whatever. But then I sound a lot like Mr. Bal Thackeray, whose speeches often contain remarks like " deshbhakta musalman aamcha dushman naahi " (I heard him say so myself in Bombay in August 1989: translation: the patriotic muslim is not our enemy). The trouble is, how do I identify the patriotic or communal as opposed to the traitorous/non-communal?
I find it imperative, however, to condemn the pogrom unleashed by Hindus against muslims in Gujarat in Feb 2002.

Arvindan, my boss will have my hide if I stick to this PC any longer. Will try to answer you. Quick reply to your last query: I work on drug delivery systems for tuberculosis and for male contraception.

Hinduthvaite

Misra,

Before comparing Gujarat riots to pogroms and N.S.Rajaram et al to Hitler's propaganda minister, you should set your own record straight.

You have argued that Hinduthva is an Indian version of Germanic racial supramascism. But again and again documentary evidence goes against your claim. Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo and Veer Savarkar - all architects of Hindu Natinalism have argued against racial discrimination. They all have focussed on the pluralist inclusive Indic culture as the common bond that unites Indians. It is this pluralist culture which is being attacked by expansionist Abrahamic creeds which are ISlam, Christianity and Marxism.

Aryan Invasion theory has been consistently used by missionaries and missionary funded politicians to create a race-based hatred against Brahmins and non-brahmins. Note that Dr.Ambedkar who was not particluarly fond of Brahmins argued strongly against any such racial interpretations. But both leftists and pseudo-secularists have often carped on Aryan race theory in their justification for pseudo-secularism.

Any glimpse through the anti-Indian Jehadi websites and evangelical websites will inform you how important Aryan race theory is to these anti-Indian elements.

Can you prove in any way that Dr.N.S.rajaram made a computer distortion to the broken seal to make it look like a horse? On the other hand it looks like a deer. But the clear pictures provided bt Frontline are more close to horse to any objective viewer.
The term ' Aryan' as used in Tamil literature (which is the oldest of the so-called non-Aryan Dravidian languages) to denote God of the Tamils again and again. So this theory of an Aryan invasion is an utter lie and has to be laid to rest. Whasoever Rajaram has done could not be more idiotic than Wheeler the invasionist's assertion ' Indra stands accused' for massacre at Mohenjadaro which was later proved by Dales to exist only in Wheeler's fertile imagination.

Also for your info: Of the 2000 and odd killed in communal riots in Gujarat more than 300 were killed in police firing and 80% of those killed in the police firing (of the BJP government) were Hindus - according to Fontline! Also it is clear from reports that Riots happened in two surges and both times the riots were triggered by Muslims.

hinduwoman

In Mitochondrial DNA lineages , T. Kivisild et. al, Current Biology, Vol 9, No 22, pp 1331-134. the researchers found that the divergence from the common pool of Eurasian genes took place about 50000 years ago. During this period people were migrating all over Europe and Asia. That is when India received the first 'Aryan' people. There had been no significant genetic splash since 50000 years ago.
The whole point is that there need not be an Aryan-Harappan dichotomy: the same race that wrote the Rigveda could have created the Harappan culture.

(PS: what do you think of Poompuhar? Graham Hancock, sponsored by Channel 4 in Britain and the Learning Channel in US (none of which organizations have anything to do with the Hindutva) explored and videographed the submerged city. Hancock, and Glenn Milne a geologist at University of Durham, UK confirmed that the ruins were at least 7000 years old, if not more. Its layout is also different from Harappan cities.)

Another point about this controversy: apparently for anyone supporting secularism, it is a life and death matter to prove that there were two races, Aryans and Dravidians --- why? Every discussion about religion or secularism always gets this theory dragged in , though it has nothing to do with the topic.

hinduwoman

Deoras does not think that ALL Muslims or christians reject their hindu heritage. Unfortunately, the minute any Muslim or christian decides he can be both, secualrists will heap scorn upon him --- as you do on Kalam and Nandi.

Does Professor Pathak conclude that Manusmriti was written by one man? Otherwise why shall I bother to read about it?

The shuddhi programs are a response to evangelicalisms of abrahamic religions. If christians are going to have the right to preach, then Hindus should have it too.

Hinduthvaite

Graham Hancock is actually cashing in on the hardwork of Indian marine archaeologists. There are significant differences between his own (pseudo-scientific) theory and the theories put forward by Indian historians like Dr.S.R.Rao.

1. Dr.Rao has hard evidence for Dwaraka. He first hypothesised that if Dwaraka is to exist it should exist here and then started the discovery and got the results. It is a local submersion of a city on some reclaimed soil back into sea.
2. Hancock on the other hand hypothesises that there existed an Universal 'spiritually and technically advanced' civilization which got destroyed by the Flood (-No scientific evidence for this either) and that all great civilizations flourished from this (hence he hunts for similarities and 'finds' them in mathematical relation between pyramids and other structures. It is all highly nonsensical stuff. He is von Daniken of marine archaeology and Hindu nationalists will do better to keep away from such crack pots. They will have to. Here is why.

He also hypothesises that a huge pre-flood city exists at Mahabalipuram at the south eastern coast of India - this coastal town was actually built by South Indian Pallava dynasty which was contemporary of Harsha - and built at the same time when the great Ajanta paintings were done. Poompuhar anoter submerged coastal town central to the great Tamil epic Silapathikaram (composed around 4th century BCE - 2nd century CE - variously dated), was first excavated by Dr.S.R.Rao. But Hancock after doing some tourist dives concludes this to be 10,000 years old! utter nonsense. I mentioned this to Dr. David Frawley in the India Civilization news group. I donot think serious Indic scholars who played a vital role in debunking AIT, like Dr.S.R.Rao, B.B.Lal, Bhisht, Jim Shaffer etc. take Hancock seriously.

Hindu woman is Right on the mark in contrasting Shuddi from exoansionist predatory abraamic creeds.

Amit Misra

The Kivisild study is not terribly relevant to the controversy of whether or not the Aryan and the harappancultures were different, is it?
Hinduwoman wrote:
Hinduwoman seems to argue that in order to be "dichotomous," two bunches of people must differ genetically at the level of mitochondrial genomes. I am plugging along saying that in order for two cultures (such as, say, the Harappan and the Aryan) to be different, there need not be barriers to cross-fertilization. Differences discernible on time scales corresponding to human lifetimes set two cultures apart: one builds cities, engages in trade and commerce; the other composes verses invoking fire, wind, rivers and prays for divine help in colonizing and farming new land. Sure, the two cultures could have been identical genetically (as identical, say, as 20th century Zimbabweans and Finns: Read your Cavalli-Sforza before you start slamming me: I took 7 months to read "The History and Geography of the Human Gene" and do not have the gumption to pick it up again so that I can answer arguments!).
The point I'm making is that the Aryan and Harappan cultures were different, as Hinduwoman does concede- one built the cities another composed the Rgveda.
I won't quote what you said, but you did make an important point about the Aryan-Harappan controversy. What makes it so important?
I respectfully submit that it is more important to the Hindu Right to "prove" that the two cultures were the same. In doing so, they can claim posession rights over this part of the world, dating from antiquity. Their opposition, however, would like to demonstrate that such a basis for defining Der Vaterland (or Bharat Mata) is not valid. This area was geographically acessible to all manners of wanderers. They came and settled here throughout history. It is not so simple as Hindi-Hindu-Hindustan.

Hinduwoman also wrote:
I do not heap scorn on either Dr. Kalam or Dr. Nandi (Ashis or Pritish? doesn't matter much, does it?) for trying to be schizophrenic in their religious affiliation. I disdain the philosophical positions of the two (disparate) Nandis for being distant from a robust, physicalist no-nonsense atheism. Dr. Kalam, poor fool, is more to be pitied than censured, perhaps. He must have toiled hard for the climb up the ladder of promotions in the Indian science establishment. I wonder how he feels clapping at the portrait of Savarkar the Coward/Liar...

sorry if i appear to be trolling. its the mery month of march, when the funding agencies want accounts of grants. busier than usual.
bye
amit

Hinduthvaite

Amit Misra,

Veer Savarkar is not half a liar (by telling half truths) or a coward (in facing facts) that you are. In fact he cannot be for he is a class apart. He is a human being and you are, down the memetic evolutionary ladder, a leftist.

1. does Hinduthva school of though claim Aryan to be a race?

No. In fact as early as 1920s Veer Savarkar rejected the idea of racial basis for nationalism while Europe was searching for a 'master Race' and years later Communist Party of China would declare itself as not being part of the 'lowly' Asian race.

On the other hand, Hindu nationalists have consistently argued that Aryan is not a racial term. Massive literary and archaeological evidence support them.

2. Rural - urban divide between Harappan and Vedic societies.

Again it is highly speculative and falls to pieces once Vedic texts are scrutinised. As the noted linguist and historian of Columnia University Edwin Bryant points out the Vedic society shows an India that has both rural and urban settings. Surely you don't suscribe to the idea that urban Harappa evolved out of no rural communities but just came up like Eric von Daniken!

3. Even those scholars like Iravatham Mahadevan who thinks there could have been a migration of linguistic group now states that Harappa could have been bilingual and that Harappan civilization is culturally Vedic and linguistically Dravidian.

4. To summarise:

Hindu nationalism does not have its basis in any race theory,
least of all Aryan race theory -rather it is cultural (or in the
Dawkins phraseology it is memetic) Veer Savarkar to B.S.Deoras the emphasis is on the Indic memes of universality. The so-called millitancy is against the Abrahamic predatory religions trying to uproot the theo-diversity of Hindustan. Hence Hinduthva is no fascist ideology on the other hand its detractors use all the usual Fascist tricks - making urban legends like persecution of missionaries as facts for justifying hatred, denial of Hindu holocaust in Bangladesh and East Pakistan, swearology without facts.

Sattwic

The Problem with North Indian Leftists is that they have not an Iota of knowledge about Saiva Siddhanta of Tamils nor about the Sangams...
Tamils trace their land NOT to the North of India... not to Harappa and Saraswathi River Civilization, but to the South, where the Tamils had their earliest nations.. which were lost to the sea/ocean. An idea of 'Atlantis' sort. Now, Tamils and Harappans share much in the way of primordial and prototype Gods/Goddesses, which the English conveniently solved by calling Harappan civilization Dravidian and Aryans as Invaders: THe Aryan Invasion Fairy Tale came into being.

What many do not realise is that Tamil Literature History is one of the oldest in the world, but does not have any reference to any invasion or clash of Aryans-Dravidians.

Tamil Philosophers, Vaishnavite Azwars, as well as Shaivite Saints do not have any problems with either Tamil or Sanskrit and take to both of these equally ancient languages with devotional gusto.

The question that is still to be answered is:
WHERE is the proof of Aryan Invasions in INDIAN literature?
WHERE is the differentiation between Races of Aryans and Dravidians in Tamil Literature?

The Aryan Invasion Fairy Tale is the best figment of imagination which needs great many Leftists to screw it in

Amit Misra

Give me a break, you tolerant, noble, Hindu Right-wingers! Hinduwoman asked the very pertinent question a few days back: how do the Aryans get into every argument b/w the Left and the Hindu Right? I'd like to emphasize that I, for one, did not bring them into this particular thread. Second, I have never (in my memory) argued that Aryans were a separate race. With what little education I have managed to acquire, I doubt whether the term 'race' with reference to the human population has any cultural or genetic relevance. So, its perfectly fine by me if you want to say that the Harappan was genetically identical to the Aryan. Its a moot point anyway. What you guys probably grudgingly concede is that there were at least two distinct ways of life prevalent in the Indus valley around 3000 BP. These differences lay in language, livelihood, material culture, etc., etc. My grouse with the hinduttva gang is primarily as regards their insistence on a sort of hegemony of a privileged population that called the Indus valley its homeland. I would like to point out to these pseudo-scholars that the kind of utopia where the noble indigenous indian (=Hindu?) elevated civilization to a pinnacle unparallelled by anything in history is too much of a good thing. Even the ravings of the lunatic Hinduttva fringe about technological and philosophical achievements of those times, though not taken seriously, cause immense harm to the Indian public by givng them a false pride that is much more dangerous than any colonial hangover or slave mentality.
Bye for now.
Amit