Freethought & Rationalism Archive

phlebas · 10-03-2002, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
Is it not possible that he has done all he can, and yet still some will reject him?

I'm sure Zeus has, and he's annoyed by it.

OOPS! Wrong unprovable god.

Pity poor Ra. (CRAP! Wrong again.)

Oh well. If the fact that humans aren't all-knowing is enough proof for you that [insert god here] exists, more power to you.

Jamie_L · 10-03-2002, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
I don't think that you are not considering everything:

Is it not possible that he has done all he can, and yet still some will reject him?

You mean, is it possible God is not omnipotent? Well, that's not the usual definition of the Christian god.

But let's ignore that for a minute. Suppose God has "done everything he can" and I still "reject" him. Why is that? Why am I so different that "everything God can do" convinces you but not me? How did I get this way? Was I born this way? Was I raised this way? Was I shaped by others in adulthood?

Looking at this from another perspcetive, if God has done everything he can, but failed to open my eyes, why am I, the mere mortal given 100% of the blame, when my supposedly omnimax creator is incapable of making things turn out different. This is my failing? For which I am to be punished?

Jamie

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]

K · 10-03-2002, 08:24 AM

Vanderzyden:

The fact that you said Starboy must prefer the company of tyrants and murderers if he thinks Hell has a better class of people. Certainly the majority of people on earth are non-tyrants and non-murderers. If the majority of people in Hell are not tyrants and murderers, then why is it any worse than Heaven which has its own tyrants and murderers (eg. Moses, David, etc.).

ManM · 10-03-2002, 08:35 AM

Mind if I hop in?

Jobar,
If we ever truly became separated from God we would cease to exist. But there is another type of separation that I can only communicate via an analogy. Imagine two people standing in a field together. The sun shines on both equally. However, should one close his eyes, he has separated himself from the sun. One person will experience the light of the sun and all it illumines, while the other will only experience the heat. The sun does indeed generate both experiences, but it is not a matter of the sun's choice. Rather it is the choice of those who experience the sun's rays. The love of God is a constant. And so heaven and hell do not exist from God's point of view, for He shines on all equally. However, those who choose to close their eyes will experience God differently from the rest. They will be separate from God in the same manner that a man with his eyes closed is separate from the sun. Such is the nature of heaven and hell.

scigirl · 10-03-2002, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
However, should one close his eyes, he has separated himself from the sun. One person will experience the light of the sun and all it illumines, while the other will only experience the heat. The sun does indeed generate both experiences, but it is not a matter of the sun's choice. Rather it is the choice of those who experience the sun's rays.

Good analogy. Also - you shouldn't stare into the sun, and you shouldn't expose yourself to the sun too much or you get skin cancer.

In other words - Christian zealots are in danger and should take a break from their religion because it could burn them.

scigirl

Jamie_L · 10-03-2002, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
Mind if I hop in?

Not at all. Now, let me fiddle with your sunshine analogy.

Suppose one of the men is blind. Now what? Should that man be punished for denying that the sun produces light?

Suppose one of the men stands in the deep shadow of a thick forest or behind a rock face where the sun cannot reach him.

Is separation from the light of the sun necessarily the fault of the person who cannot see it?

Jamie

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]

ManM · 10-03-2002, 09:55 AM

Jamie_L,

Quote:

Suppose one of the men is blind. Now what? Should that man be punished for denying that the sun produces light?

All must have the potential to see or else the analogy does not make sense.

Quote:

Is separation from the light of the sun necessarily the fault of the person who cannot see it?

I would say that yes, we are ultimately responsible for how we handle ourselves.

Quote:

Suppose one of the men stands in the deep shadow of a thick forest or behind a rock face where the sun cannot reach him.

I rearranged the order of your post because my analogy only refers to the next life. Your scenario of the man in a thick forest is a perfect example of our ignorance in this life. The question of heaven and hell deals with what happens when the forest goes away and we are all exposed to the light.

Starboy · 10-03-2002, 09:57 AM

Vander,

As I see it, the Christian rules for ascending to heaven only involve being a good person peripherally and do not require goodness. Thus I expect that if there were such a place as heaven mostly the toadies of god would be found there.

Starboy

MrDarwin · 10-03-2002, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
But why don't I believe in God? If he's real, and he wants us all to believe, why don't I?

That's the question at the heart of this thread.

If god is real and omniscient, he knows me. He knows why I don't believe. He knows what it would take to make me believe. If God is real and omnipotent, he can bring to pass whatever is needed to make me see the light. And yet, I don't believe. Why?

Jamie

Excellent questions. Here are some more:

1. Did God know at the moment of creation that I would exist?
2. Did God know at the moment of creation everything I would do, say, and believe?
3. Did God know at the moment of creation what my ultimate fate (i.e., salvation vs. damnation) would be?
4. Did God know these things at the moment of creation for each and every human being who now exists, has ever existed, or ever will exist?

I'm still wondering how Christians answer these questions to themselves, and manage to retain a belief in both free will and a benevolent God.

MrDarwin · 10-03-2002, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
The love of God is a constant. And so heaven and hell do not exist from God's point of view, for He shines on all equally. However, those who choose to close their eyes will experience God differently from the rest. They will be separate from God in the same manner that a man with his eyes closed is separate from the sun. Such is the nature of heaven and hell.

Are you suggesting that those who find themselves in "hell" will be able to open their eyes and get out of it?

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10-03-2002, 08:24 AM	#63
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Vanderzyden: The fact that you said Starboy must prefer the company of tyrants and murderers if he thinks Hell has a better class of people. Certainly the majority of people on earth are non-tyrants and non-murderers. If the majority of people in Hell are not tyrants and murderers, then why is it any worse than Heaven which has its own tyrants and murderers (eg. Moses, David, etc.).

10-03-2002, 08:35 AM	#64
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	Mind if I hop in? Jobar, If we ever truly became separated from God we would cease to exist. But there is another type of separation that I can only communicate via an analogy. Imagine two people standing in a field together. The sun shines on both equally. However, should one close his eyes, he has separated himself from the sun. One person will experience the light of the sun and all it illumines, while the other will only experience the heat. The sun does indeed generate both experiences, but it is not a matter of the sun's choice. Rather it is the choice of those who experience the sun's rays. The love of God is a constant. And so heaven and hell do not exist from God's point of view, for He shines on all equally. However, those who choose to close their eyes will experience God differently from the rest. They will be separate from God in the same manner that a man with his eyes closed is separate from the sun. Such is the nature of heaven and hell.

10-03-2002, 09:57 AM	#68
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Vander, As I see it, the Christian rules for ascending to heaven only involve being a good person peripherally and do not require goodness. Thus I expect that if there were such a place as heaven mostly the toadies of god would be found there. Starboy

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