free12thinker

I wanted to reply to this topic, but you took the words right out of my mouth. This was a thoughtful reply (especially the paragraph surrounding your mother). I am in complete agreeance with everything stated.

brighid

free12thinker,

Thanks!

It’s really difficult to break away. It still pains me and I know it brings my mother pain that I am not Catholic, but intellectual dishonesty is even more painful, for me that is. I am REALLY bad at holding things in and when I do those suppressed feelings tend to manifest themselves in all sorts of bad ways and for my health I HAD to address those nagging doubts and confront those questions.

I have caught a hell of a lot of flack for it. Relationships have been destroyed and strain has been placed on others. It would be so much easier on my life if I just towed the line with every one else. But I can’t. It is physically and psychologically painful for me to participate in a lie. I love my mother dearly, but she and I don’t see eye to eye and right now our relationship is VERY strained because of it. I know I can’t change her, or probably even convince her of anything. I do know that the more insecure she becomes about her identity and the more difficult her personal life is, the more fervent she becomes in her religious expression – and the more she drinks. It’s really sad because her faith alienates her from almost her entire family – and they are Christian and Catholic! She has said she wants to live on some isolated mountaintop with Rottweilers patrolling the perimeter to keep “unwanted” people away. Those people would be any non-Catholic, non-white, homosexual, liberal or Democrat – or any combination thereof!

I try to be understanding and compassionate and I truly feel that each person should be allowed the liberty to follow life’s path at his or her own pace. Some are simply not strong enough to relinquish their faith in a God, or at least that is what they believe. My mother often comments that she wishes she could be a strong as I am and as smart. I tell she can be all that and more. She just simply needs to choose to be those things. I also think some people simply do not have the mental skills to evaluate theistic and atheistic claims.

Theists bother me to no end and sometimes I wish they would keep their opinions to themselves – more often then not that is. I just try to be understanding of their stage of development. I envy those teenagers that have embraced atheism at an early age. I had my doubts then, but I wasn’t really interested in pursuing it too much and I was still a bit under my parents thumb. I really wish my mother and I did not have to clash, but I cannot stomach the beliefs that derived from her Catholicism – her racial bigotry, her homophobia, her inability to physically be near people she know aren’t Catholic and heterosexual and she has even expressed that she wishes she didn’t have to care for gay AIDS patients and that they should be left to die because this is their punishment from God. It rips my heart out to hear my mother say such things.

I haven’t come out and told her – Mom, I am an atheist. I am waiting – one more week – until my stepsister moves out. My mother takes out her frustrations with me out on her and I don’t want to subject her to the torment that will come once I admit the only thing worse then being a lesbian – being an atheist – except if I was a lesbian AND an atheist!

Today, the whole thing makes me cry and I feel emotionally drained. I will be fine after a long weekend of rest, relaxation, some tough exercise to get the physical frustration out, some good eats and my loving family. Ughhhhhhhh …. Thanks for letting me vent!


B

free12thinker

I am very interested in your paragraphs that I will quote below:

Quote by Brighid:
My mother often comments that she wishes she could be a strong as I am and as smart. I tell she can be all that and more. She just simply needs to choose to be those things. I also think some people simply do not have the mental skills to evaluate theistic and atheistic claims.

Theists bother me to no end and sometimes I wish they would keep their opinions to themselves – more often then not that is. I just try to be understanding of their stage of development.
____________________________________________

When you note that some people simply do not have the mental skills to evaluate theistic and atheistic claims, I agree with you again. I agree with you to the point that I started a new Post (under Existence of Gods), about an hour before I read this reply. And walaaa, here you are, saying the same thing, but in a much better way.

Unfortunately, I am getting flack for how I worded it. Maybe I didn't word it right. But I feel there is some level of difference in mental capacity between theists and non-theists, but I can't explain it. Do you have any insight you would like to share as a reply to the post, concerning your feelings about peoples ability to think outside of the religious box?

Sojourner553

The reason why people are so reluctant to look at atheism, is because of the fear they will have to face their mortality.

My sister used to say it this way. "She's happy believing" so why should anything else (ie like the truth) matter.

I always especially liked this chapter

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/PHILOSO3.TXT" target="_blank">Is Religion Inherent to the Human Condition?/How do Atheists Cope with Their Mortality?] </a>

The first half discusses the common themes that draw people of all cultures towards religion (fear of death being one major factor!)

The second half tells how atheists have coped with the concept of their own mortality. Animals see other people die around them and perhaps have some understanding that others die. But it is thought that only humans can project this into the future to envision the inevitability that they too will someday die!

Sojourner
(BTW on the name: I thought the analogy when I took this name was as a traveler in search of truth. Sojourner Truth had also crossed my mind.)

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

free12thinker

I don't know of any Atheists who are reluctant to look at Atheism because they fear mortality. Most people, like Brighid, just don't know how to approach it with theists who lack the tolerance in coping with atheism, because the theists cannot stop visioning mortality and reality for that matter, which is why they are theists in the first place. By being theists, they can see life (and the inevitable end) as the beginning of a great thing.

brighid

The idea that death is the end of my natural existence is at times fearful, especially when I apply it to my feelings for those I love; such as my son, my husband and others. At times my eventual and inevitable death seems surreal and other times the reality is all too striking. I am not well versed in most areas of science, but I think I understand the basic concepts of it. Also, I haven’t really studied it as much – hence a lack of knowledge.

It is comforting believing that our “souls” will live on, even after our bodies pass on and become food for other organisms and animals to feed from, thereby continue the cycles of birth, life, death and rebirth (so to speak.) It’s difficult to conceptualize that my consciousness is dependent upon my body and that energy cannot somehow separate itself. I don’t know much about the mechanics of energy but I do remember hearing that one cannot destroy energy and that we are essentially energy (plus organic matter). What happens to that energy when our bodies die? Perhaps that energy is what theists consider being the soul. I don’t really know and because my knowledge is so weak in this area I don’t feel I can really speak too much about this subject.

So, I will move on. As an atheist I have really had to tackle the issue of death and come to a sense of peace that this is very likely the ONLY life I have and that I had better no squander it. If, at the end of my natural life, some part of my consciousness or that energy continues on, so be it. Although I am unsure how I would “know” it. I certainly don’t want to die and I want to lead a productive, happy, healthy life and hopefully leave a legacy that will immortalize my memory. I think humans have a difficult time comprehending death because of its finality and how that seems so abrupt and absolute. We are above our other animal counterparts and what separates us is our ability to intellectualize to a much greater capacity (in degrees of course from ALL other animal life forms). Maybe this is why it’s so difficult to fathom the unknown – the fear of our own mortality. Therefore we immortalize Gods and Goddesses and envision that they can somehow rescue us from this finality – if we obey and pay homage to the RIGHT one.

I don’t KNOW that something more does or does not exist. What I do know is that the pantheon of Gods that the human mind has imagined, anthropomorphosized and projected onto reality cannot logically and reasonably be real. The idea that some supernatural being can rescue us from our destiny is comforting. It’s comforting thinking that our ancestors, our deceased friends or family are somewhere waiting to reunite with us and are somehow guiding us along the right path. The human mind is complex and capable of all sorts of things. And I really wish I could believe in a Savior and Guardian Angels, but I can’t. Those things gave me strength and comfort when I was a child, just as Santa and the Easter Bunny brought me excitement, anticipation and at times obedience. But eventually I grew up and intellectually matured to understand that Santa is no longer a real person who can actually affect me. I enjoy celebrating the “spirit” of Santa and the characteristics of giving for the sake of goodness, etc. and the inspiration that creates is heart warming and at times compelling. I realize that all of this is internal and I choose to allow such things to influence my emotions and create warm fuzzies and other things one COULD attribute to outside forces acting upon my being.

Free12thinker- I posted some of my thoughts on intelligence in the theism vs. atheism debate on the other thread you started

It takes self-confidence to break away from the socially acceptable norms and there are far too many people who lack that necessary confidence, no matter how smart they are. We are taught not to trust ourselves, we are somehow intrinsically defective and that believing in someone or something else will fix those defects that we cannot ever fix independent of this being. I have found this line of thinking to be very destructive to a strong sense of self, an enormous part of the problem and the primary control tool of theism.

So, in addition to social and cultural demands for theism and the resultant harm it can cause to ones sense of self, regardless of educational level or intellectual ability, theism is a concept that is very difficult to break away from. Fear holds us back and that fear is usually far more pronounced in our imaginations then need be. Humans are efficient at creating obstacles for their success without ones factually existing to hinder their progress. Theism can be one of the sabotaging constructs. We can’t deny that some of the concepts that theism supports (charity, compassion, assistance for the poor, forgiveness, etc.) are good characteristics to adopt and nourish in ones moral fiber. However, theism does not have an exclusive contract on such character building ideals as it often asserts. I think people who use theism as a building block for a better moral character are people who would otherwise choose such things if the vehicle of theism was not available. I think people who use theism to harm others would also find another vehicle to do so, and in both cases theism is a very strong motivator for good AND evil. That whole debate is much more complex though

I think if one has the confidence to challenge tradition and seek out answers, even if the outcome is not what we presume it may be, and if one also has a adequate degree of intelligence and common sense that one may be more likely than not to conclude that atheism is the correct path. I would also preface that I don’t believe that atheism should impose itself, by force onto any one, but that society should not pressure people to believe or suppress the necessary knowledge for disbelief. I personally feel that no child should be exposed to the ideas of theism until he or she reaches an age where they can explore and understand the implications of theism, and thereby as an adult come to their own conclusions without having to battle preconceived notions. If as an adult, one is allowed the freedom to thoroughly explore all religions and philosophies available and one concludes that theism should be explored, then one should be allowed the freedom to explore and test what ever path he or she chooses – without restraint. I truly believe if man was not previously pressured or indoctrinated into a particular religious path until adulthood, and in childhood was provided with the necessary educational tools to critically examine ALL things very few people would conclude that theism (as we know it) is a valid construct.


Brighid

FredJ_UK

Be very sure before you do this. I know you want to be honest with your mother, but will your "coming out" really improve things? Will your mother's attitudes on race, homosexuality etc change? Or will you just add another "problem" for her? Sometimes sleeping dogs should be left to lie.

(From - Ex-catholic boy and Irish mother's son)

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: FredJ_UK ]

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: FredJ_UK ]</p>

brighid

Believe me – I have debated whether or not to tell her the truth about my atheism. And up until recently I have had left that sleeping dog lay. My sister knows, and so does my step-sister and knowing my family my sister will get pissed off at me (and she already is) and it will come out in conversation. If I was confident that my sister wouldn’t say anything, either to my mother or my brother I might just leave it alone. But I think it’s best that she hear it from me and not hear about it second hand – if she hasn’t already. If I felt my mother was incapable of changing I would not tell her, but she has gone from mildly religious, open minded and compassionate to overly religious, inflexible and terribly narrow-minded and back again in varying extremes. Those extremes are pretty much dependent upon her personal situation and her self-esteem or lack thereof.

The funny thing is I have no desire to discuss such things with my father. I think part of that reason is that he doesn’t try to force his religious beliefs on me, nor does he treat others badly (anymore) because he is Catholic. He is also marginally and I don’t think he has been to church in a very long time, although he still considers himself a theist and a Catholic one. My mother, on the other hand makes it quite clear that she prays for my soul and my return to Catholicism, that I can’t see the forest fore’ the trees, that homosexuals are pedophiles and blacks walk like apes. She treated my maid of honor with utter contempt at my wedding for no other reason other than my MOH is gay! My MOH is also my best friend and responsible for opening the doors for my job and my husbands. Not to mention the countless other selfless things she has done to help me. My mother was also fully aware that my MOH’s brother was among the military personnel critically injured in the 9-11 attacks and she couldn’t even bring herself to look at her, shake her hand or even be cordial as the mother of the bride!

Her beliefs are in direct conflict with what I find morally decent and it is severely affecting our relationship and I am at my wits end. I feel that if I continue to remain silent, things won’t get better. And I feel that if at least I am honest I can settle for her not talking to me. I have this very, very difficult time repressing who and what I am and if she cannot accept my choices – well, that is her right. But how can I keep avoiding the issue so her feelings aren’t hurt? I’m an atheist, period and she needs to understand that she can’t keep forcing her beliefs on everyone and that what she does is not right! Uggggggggghhhhhhhhh …. I have been the “parent” in my relationship with her since I was in 8th grade and it’s so tiresome.

Thanks for the advice !

B

free12thinker

If you're battling these demons inside of you, then I believe you need to tell her, bar none. Why? because it's not fair to you to have to keep everything bottled up, just because someone may be upset with you. What's more, that someone is your mother. Your flesh and blood. The provider of unconditional love (at least she should be). You're not committing murder. You're an atheist. You have principles to live by. If she doesn't understand, maybe she should establish her priorities. And you should be one of those priorities. If you're not, at least you know. And you're not suffering anymore by having something bottled up.

Veil of Fire

I'm not sure I understand. In fact, I'm sure I *don't* understand. Could you rephrase? Preferably so an elementary education major can grasp it? I freely admit to not being on the same wavelength as many of y'all... :-\

Umm..
I'm not a Christian.