Freethought & Rationalism Archive

phaedrus · 02-25-2002, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emphryio:
Can I answer that last one?

If people disapprove of an action of yours, and they have some type of power over you, then they might harm you in some way.

And with that said, as long as we live in a flesh and blood world, just about everyone is capable of having some power over just about everyone else.

So it doesn't just have to be your boss firing you, or society ostracizing you. Just the knowledge that any one individual who disagrees with you might be willing to become violent, that can affect you. That can cause you instead to assimilate and not do what seems natural and right to yourself.

My question could be easily extended in view of your response to state - Why are you letting them have power over you? If you are totally convinced about your belief system and your version of the world/universe, why are you letting others views affect yours, especially when you know they are wrong? Regarding others becoming violent, you can either stop living in such groups or give it back to them (I dont know in what circumstances so in the end its upto you how to deal with such things)

phaedrus · 02-25-2002, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl:


I want to answer it too. If you dare, venture over to the Baptistboard.com, and read how their views about sex could lead to making it a crime to be a homosexual! Or for atheists to have children!

That's why I care, because people's attitudes about this issue will affect us, whether we like it or not.

Err...i have a standard statement in such situations - "When i dont like the food at a particular restaurant, i stop going to that place. And if most of the restaurants in the place i live in offer food that i dont like, i will try to get a group of individuals like me and try to make them offer something different or move out of the locality or will keep quiet and change my taste in food".

We are not exactly living in countries where the laws are the exact replica of the religious code, so why bother about what some nincompoops think about it?

Ms. Siv · 02-25-2002, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl:
This question is silly to me because. . .I don't think it's necessarily immoral to be selfish.

scigirl

Very well said. Only if that selfishness affects someone else adversely does immorality enter into it.
If everything we enjoyed became immoral (because it is selfish!)then we should feel guilty even about enjoying a good cup of coffee !

- Sivakami.

Arrowman · 02-25-2002, 11:13 PM

Dear 1sec,

OK, I understand you now.

First off, I've got to say that if your friends, neighbours (!) and workmates all have such clearly expressed views on (and knowledge of) your sex life, then either (a) you're giving them way more information than they need, or (b) you're projecting / being just a touch paranoid. Or (c) you are getting way more than me, and therefore I think you're immature and immoral too!

So some people have an opinion about your sex life - so what. That's what people do - have opinions about the way others live their lives. If you're comfortable with yourself, then carry on with life. Although I must say I was only half joking above - how come so many people, neighbours and workmates included, know so much about your sex life that they can express opinions?

To respond to a couple of your points.

if women always expect more than i have to offer, does that mean i am immoral?

IMHO, If you know or strongly suspect that she is expecting more (presumably emotional involvement or commitment) that you are willing to offer, and you shag her anyway, then yes, I'm sorry, you are being unethical (I prefer "ethics" to "morals" in this discussion - subtle difference, in my mind anyway). You are consciously ignoring the feelings and desires of another person because they are an impediment to your desires, and risking emotional harm to that person in the process.

If you genuinely didn't know what she was thinking, but this sort of thing keeps happening to you, then maybe you need to work on your relationship radar. You can't put it all off on the other person or whine "why should society interfere with my sex (private) life?" just because it suits you.

Twice in my life I have had a casual encounter with someone who expected more than I did from the occasion, and I don't want to do that again. My defence is that I didn't "know or strongly suspect". Of course, now I'm in my forties, I can expect all females in my age group to be fully grown adults in charge of their lives and making sensible decisions about their own behaviour, so this is no longer an issue for me

it is the people around that bother me most... they keep preaching what is moral to me

Then stop telling them what's going on in your bedroom! I mean, there's no excuse for "preaching" but on the other hand - well, what I said at the start of this post.

morality and sex should not mix

Agreed, to some extent - but consideration for others, and what I would prefer to call "ethics" than "morals", is a part of all aspects of human life. Whenever you deal with others, there is room for ethics.

Don't use the fact that some people apply stricter and in your views more unreasonable moral attitudes to sex than you do, as an excuse for thinking that there's no need for ethics/morals at all.

ELECTROGOD · 02-27-2002, 09:15 PM

The one part of this discussion that usually gets ignored is that sex is NOT exclusive to humans and automatically subject to their precious morality.
Sex was here before humans, sex is more plentiful apart from humans, sex is why humans exist. Defining sex with morality is absurd.
Let's keep on this thread but with this in mind.

1sec · 02-28-2002, 05:10 AM

Look.

I'm not that narrow-minded to consider humans simple reproductive creatures.

I understand there should be an etiquette, and people should keep their private life ... private. But it is my fellow workers that initiate discussions on what I do without my provoking them. My relatives always bring up the issue of me not standing on the right side of morality. And so on.

I always try to keep my private life away from the public eye, but I have the feeling that the other people are invading it. In the name of ethics they want me to join the crowd and end up married with children just the way they did.

All my friends are either married or planning to, and many of them are already avoiding me because of my standpoint on sex life.

Damn. It is obvious that Man automatically mixes sex with morality/ethics, but this is always going to led to social contradictions.

PsycheDelia · 02-28-2002, 08:58 AM

1sec,

I remember your reply to my post on the ‘herd mentality’ thread on the philosophy forum where you said that you could possibly be counted among the ranks of the fringe people. To continue that theory of mine, I believe that a lot of people on the fringe create their own moral systems as well… so there you go!

Someone once recommended the book ‘The Ethical Slut’ to me. Perhaps there are some answers for you in there. Not about how to handle disapproving society, but how to at least be ethical with your partners. Though to be perfectly honest, I didn’t find any answers there, but that might be because I didn’t finish the book

Good luck…

hedonologist2 · 02-28-2002, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emphryio:
I always thought the idea of sex being bad came from the idea that true happiness couldn't be obtained from fleeting physical pleasures. Therefore, sex and gluttony are considered bad.

I agree that true happiness might not come from non-continuos physical pleasures, but does that necessarily mean such things will get in the way of finding true happiness?

Hmmm, come to think of it. I guess it could.

I think part of the answer may be revealed in studying the physiology of various experiences over various durations of time. A similar question is this, "If dopamine is released in a large burst does this mean there will be less of it released more slowly?" It is a highly complex question involving many variables, yet these are the sorts of factors we "subconsciously" consider in the experiment of our lives.

hedonologist2 · 02-28-2002, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl:
This question is silly to me because. . .I don't think it's necessarily immoral to be selfish.

scigirl

It seems that would just depend on how you defined selfishness.

hedonologist2 · 02-28-2002, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1sec:
I've never understood why they regulate sex through ethics.

Sex and Morality never mix.

Don't do to others what you wouldn't like them to do to you = says the most basic principle of the ethical theory.

Sure, why not.
Don't kill.
Don't opress.
Don't torture.
Don't steal.
Don't lie.
Don't swindle.
and so on

but Don't have sex?

Why do they consider me immoral if I claim that good sex is as good as good music?
...
Why should Morality mix with Sex?

You justify "sex" on the basis of a moral principle and then ask why it should mix with sex. Does "morality" concern only what NOT to do?

Quote:

Originally posted by 1sec:
My friens sometimes tend to consider me unreliable just because I do not have a regular sex mate (rather occasional ones - the number is not the issue here). I find this abusive.
…
one more thing: if women always expect more than i have to offer, does that mean i am immoral? should i just stay away from them? i mean, if i make sure that no one gets ill or pregnant, why should i be the selfish one?

Isn't the number of partners one factor which affects the issue of how sure you are that no one will get ill from an STD or communicable disease?

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02-25-2002, 11:13 PM	#24
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	Dear 1sec, OK, I understand you now. First off, I've got to say that if your friends, neighbours (!) and workmates all have such clearly expressed views on (and knowledge of) your sex life, then either (a) you're giving them way more information than they need, or (b) you're projecting / being just a touch paranoid. Or (c) you are getting way more than me, and therefore I think you're immature and immoral too! So some people have an opinion about your sex life - so what. That's what people do - have opinions about the way others live their lives. If you're comfortable with yourself, then carry on with life. Although I must say I was only half joking above - how come so many people, neighbours and workmates included, know so much about your sex life that they can express opinions? To respond to a couple of your points. if women always expect more than i have to offer, does that mean i am immoral? IMHO, If you know or strongly suspect that she is expecting more (presumably emotional involvement or commitment) that you are willing to offer, and you shag her anyway, then yes, I'm sorry, you are being unethical (I prefer "ethics" to "morals" in this discussion - subtle difference, in my mind anyway). You are consciously ignoring the feelings and desires of another person because they are an impediment to your desires, and risking emotional harm to that person in the process. If you genuinely didn't know what she was thinking, but this sort of thing keeps happening to you, then maybe you need to work on your relationship radar. You can't put it all off on the other person or whine "why should society interfere with my sex (private) life?" just because it suits you. Twice in my life I have had a casual encounter with someone who expected more than I did from the occasion, and I don't want to do that again. My defence is that I didn't "know or strongly suspect". Of course, now I'm in my forties, I can expect all females in my age group to be fully grown adults in charge of their lives and making sensible decisions about their own behaviour, so this is no longer an issue for me it is the people around that bother me most... they keep preaching what is moral to me Then stop telling them what's going on in your bedroom! I mean, there's no excuse for "preaching" but on the other hand - well, what I said at the start of this post. morality and sex should not mix Agreed, to some extent - but consideration for others, and what I would prefer to call "ethics" than "morals", is a part of all aspects of human life. Whenever you deal with others, there is room for ethics. Don't use the fact that some people apply stricter and in your views more unreasonable moral attitudes to sex than you do, as an excuse for thinking that there's no need for ethics/morals at all.

02-27-2002, 09:15 PM	#25
ELECTROGOD Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: GR, MI USA Posts: 4,009	The one part of this discussion that usually gets ignored is that sex is NOT exclusive to humans and automatically subject to their precious morality. Sex was here before humans, sex is more plentiful apart from humans, sex is why humans exist. Defining sex with morality is absurd. Let's keep on this thread but with this in mind.

02-28-2002, 05:10 AM	#26
1sec Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 41	Look. I'm not that narrow-minded to consider humans simple reproductive creatures. I understand there should be an etiquette, and people should keep their private life ... private. But it is my fellow workers that initiate discussions on what I do without my provoking them. My relatives always bring up the issue of me not standing on the right side of morality. And so on. I always try to keep my private life away from the public eye, but I have the feeling that the other people are invading it. In the name of ethics they want me to join the crowd and end up married with children just the way they did. All my friends are either married or planning to, and many of them are already avoiding me because of my standpoint on sex life. Damn. It is obvious that Man automatically mixes sex with morality/ethics, but this is always going to led to social contradictions.

02-28-2002, 08:58 AM	#27
PsycheDelia Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: the point at which two worlds collide Posts: 282	1sec, I remember your reply to my post on the ‘herd mentality’ thread on the philosophy forum where you said that you could possibly be counted among the ranks of the fringe people. To continue that theory of mine, I believe that a lot of people on the fringe create their own moral systems as well… so there you go! Someone once recommended the book ‘The Ethical Slut’ to me. Perhaps there are some answers for you in there. Not about how to handle disapproving society, but how to at least be ethical with your partners. Though to be perfectly honest, I didn’t find any answers there, but that might be because I didn’t finish the book Good luck…

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