Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crocodile deathroll · 01-02-2003, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by excreationist
Are you saying that infants, who don't even know language, are "conscious"? (Since they "don't need to be taught it") What about recently fertilized eggs, etc? Or amoeba? Could you give examples of what is and isn't conscious and at what point it crosses the line between being not conscious and conscious.

Sorry about the spelling errors.
I feel consciousness is an emergent property of higher order complexity and as soon as matter reaches a critical level of complexity consciousness spontaneously flashes into existence.
We know a single atom is not conscious and a rock is not conscious and a bacterium is not consciousness unless you endorse panphychism. But at a critical phase consciousness did emerge into existence.

If you were an infant and you were adopted by Russians and lived in Siberia all your life, then you would have a very different mind to the mind you have now. A different language and a different environment , but you would still have the same expressions of consciousness with the same circadian rhythms.

excreationist · 01-02-2003, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
Sorry about the spelling errors.
I feel consciousness is an emergent property of higher order complexity and as soon as matter reaches a critical level of complexity consciousness spontaneously flashes into existence.
We know a single atom is not conscious and a rock is not conscious and a bacterium is not consciousness unless you endorse panphychism. But at a critical phase consciousness did emerge into existence.

If you were an infant and you were adopted by Russians and lived in Siberia all your life, then you would have a very different mind to the mind you have now. A different language and a different environment , but you would still have the same expressions of consciousness with the same circadian rhythms.

You're pretty vague about what consciousness is and what possesses consciousness....

I think a good framework to think about consciousness is Piaget's one:
Piaget identified four stages in cognitive development

Quote:

1. Sensorimotor stage (Infancy). In this period (which has 6 stages), intelligence is demonstrated through motor activity without the use of symbols. Knowledge of the world is limited (but developing) because its based on physical interactions / experiences. Children acquire object permanence at about 7 months of age (memory). Physical development (mobility) allows the child to begin developing new intellectual abilities. Some symbollic (language) abilities are developed at the end of this stage.

2. Pre-operational stage (Toddler and Early Childhood). In this period (which has two substages), intelligence is demonstrated through the use of symbols, language use matures, and memory and imagination are developed, but thinking is done in a nonlogical, nonreversable manner. Egocentric thinking predominates

3. Concrete operational stage (Elementary and early adolescence). In this stage (characterized by 7 types of conservation: number, length, liquid, mass, weight, area, volume), intelligence is demonstarted through logical and systematic manipulation of symbols related to concrete objects. Operational thinking develops (mental actions that are reversible). Egocentric thought diminishes.

4. Formal operational stage (Adolescence and adulthood). In this stage, intelligence is demonstrated through the logical use of symbols related to abstract concepts. Early in the period there is a return to egocentric thought. Only 35% of high school graduates in industrialized countries obtain formal operations; many people do not think formally during adulthood.

Though I have quoted that many times, unfortunately I haven't gotten around to learning about it in further detail. I think the type of intelligence in stage one would be similar to that of many animals (mostly birds and mammals perhaps)... perhaps stage 2 is the highest stage apes can reach.

Though I've never observed the development of a toddler in detail, I think the threshold for my definition of consciousness is where the toddler suddenly starts asking questions about everything - including those about the distant future - such as about their own death, or about Christmas, etc... I'm not sure what stage that is equivalent to in Piaget's scheme but his work seems pretty interesting. I don't necessarily agree with everything he has every written though. (Some of his ideas may be outdated)

crocodile deathroll · 01-02-2003, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by excreationist
You're pretty vague about what consciousness is and what possesses consciousness....

I think a good framework to think about consciousness is Piaget's one:
Piaget identified four stages in cognitive development

Though I have quoted that many times, unfortunately I haven't gotten around to learning about it in further detail. I think the type of intelligence in stage one would be similar to that of many animals (mostly birds and mammals perhaps)... perhaps stage 2 is the highest stage apes can reach.

Though I've never observed the development of a toddler in detail, I think the threshold for my definition of consciousness is where the toddler suddenly starts asking questions about everything - including those about the distant future - such as about their own death, or about Christmas, etc... I'm not sure what stage that is equivalent to in Piaget's scheme but his work seems pretty interesting. I don't necessarily agree with everything he has every written though. (Some of his ideas may be outdated)

This indicates to me consciousness is an emergent pattern. There is an old assumption that consciousness is incarnate

Quote:

First, I take as axiomatic that, in a scientific discussion of "consciousness", we can only talk about incarnate consciousness[6]. The second point flows from the first: if consciousness is incarnate, then the expressions of consciousness that are examinable will, in part, be dependant upon the medium in which it incarnates. The medium is not so much the message (McLuhan and Fiore, 1967), as it is a message and a conditioning factor on transmission[7]. A third point is that consciousness is both reflexive and recursive and, as such, is a process rather than a state. The recursiveness of consciousness is, however, highly dependant upon the media in which and through which it acts and is acted upon.

I think if consciousness was incarnate then why hasn't anyone found one in PET scan or a functional MRI?

for the moment I think it is an emergent property of a complex system.
Source:
Consciousness, the Structural Environment, and Rites of Passage

Keith Russell · 01-02-2003, 05:24 AM

Crocodile:

If consciousness is not incarnate, then what is it?

And, if PET scans and MRIs can't locate consciousness, what kinds of tools would you suggest for locating an incarnate consciousness?

Keith.

crocodile deathroll · 01-02-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell
Crocodile:

If consciousness is not incarnate, then what is it?

And, if PET scans and MRIs can't locate consciousness, what kinds of tools would you suggest for locating an incarnate consciousness?

Keith.

I just said it is an emergent pattern

Quote:

"The emergent pattern is not a representation of a stimulus, nor a ringing as when a bell is struck, nor a resonance as when one string of a guitar vibrates when another string does so at its natural frequency. It is a phase transition that is induced by a stimulus, followed by a construction of a pattern that is shaped by the synaptic modifications among cortical neurons from prior learning. It is also dependent on the brain stem nuclei that bathe the forebrain in neuromodulatory chemicals. It is a dynamic action pattern that creates and carries the meaning of the stimulus for the subject. It reflects the individual history, present context, and expectancy, corresponding to the unity and the wholeness of intentionality. Owing to dependence on history, the patterns created in each cortex are unique to each subject." ( Source )

This is the pattern that emerges with all brains probably from a genetically prompted stimulii that all brains share in common.

Here is another good example of an emergent pattern: Overview of Circadian Rhythms (pdf)

crocodile deathroll · 01-02-2003, 09:49 PM

I managed to edit to opening post this time and I clearly stated to tick one or more boxes
This is the score at the stage I posted this

When you are dead, that's it. Game over. 53 .......63.10%
When you are dead you will forget that you were ever born in the first place 9 .......10.71%
Reincarnation, because I can remember my past lives. 0 ......0%
You go to Heaven or Hell or where ever God sends you. 3....... 3.57%
You continue to exist in a parallel universe 3 .......3.57%
You exist on Earth in some ghostly spirit realm. 0 .......0%
Cryonics will save me 2 .......2.38%
Cloning will save me 0 .......0%
I am an agnostic on this topic 9 .......10.71%
I never give it much thought. 5 .......5.95%

Total: 69 votes 100%

I will be interesting to see how it develops form here.

01-02-2003, 09:49 PM	#66
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	I managed to edit to opening post this time and I clearly stated to tick one or more boxes This is the score at the stage I posted this When you are dead, that's it. Game over. 53 .......63.10% When you are dead you will forget that you were ever born in the first place 9 .......10.71% Reincarnation, because I can remember my past lives. 0 ......0% You go to Heaven or Hell or where ever God sends you. 3....... 3.57% You continue to exist in a parallel universe 3 .......3.57% You exist on Earth in some ghostly spirit realm. 0 .......0% Cryonics will save me 2 .......2.38% Cloning will save me 0 .......0% I am an agnostic on this topic 9 .......10.71% I never give it much thought. 5 .......5.95% Total: 69 votes 100% I will be interesting to see how it develops form here.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

View Poll Results: The "afterlife" poll
When you are dead, that's it. Game over.	63	76.83%
When you are dead you will forget that you were ever born in the first place	13	15.85%
Reincarnation, because I can remember my past lives.	1	1.22%
You go to Heaven or Hell or where ever God sends you.	4	4.88%
You continue to exist in a parallel universe	4	4.88%
You exist on Earth in some ghostly spirit realm.	1	1.22%
Cryonics will save me	3	3.66%
Cloning will save me	0	0%
I am an agnostic on this topic	12	14.63%
I never give it much thought.	5	6.10%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

01-02-2003, 05:24 AM	#64
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Crocodile: If consciousness is not incarnate, then what is it? And, if PET scans and MRIs can't locate consciousness, what kinds of tools would you suggest for locating an incarnate consciousness? Keith.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.