Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GPLindsey · 04-14-2002, 07:17 AM

I think our aversion to seeing animals killed is what has been "learned" over the course of centuries; our natural instinct would have been to remain hunters and enjoy the thrill of the kill.

As far as how eating meat affects our longevity--lets say scientists invent a small, flavorless tablet that, if eaten three times a day for the rest of our lives, will allow each of us to live to be 120 yrs old--PROVIDED we don't eat anything else. Would you start taking it? I wouldn't. I'd sooner have 70 or 80 years of enjoying what life has to offer--including breaded pork cutlets with some lemon slices, with german potato salad and a nice stein of beer (yum!)--than avoiding everything pleasurable just to incrementally increase my lifespan.

Finally, all Nature really intended for us to do was live long enough to procreate and care for our young until they can fend for themselves. Under Nature's rules, any extension of our life expectancy past about age 30 is pure profit. So eat meat!!

The AntiChris · 04-14-2002, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPLindsey:
I think our aversion to seeing animals killed is what has been "learned" over the course of centuries; our natural instinct would have been to remain hunters and enjoy the thrill of the kill.

I see.

I wonder what other "learned" aversions we need to discard in order to completely fulfill our natural role as noble savages?

Chris

Faux Christian · 04-14-2002, 10:51 AM

Do you think eating meat would be more ethical if we were to go out and hunt/kill it ourselves? It seems that most of the religious vegans (religious meaning that they believe that eating meat is immoral and bad) don't think we should eat meat because it's mean to the animal i.e. we keep the meat in a cage and feed it simply so that we can make it fat for eating later. So if we were to resort to the hunting/killing society would that make meat-eating any better/more moral?

Yellow3 · 04-14-2002, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The AntiChris:


I think you're confusing instinct with what is learned. My experience is that most people would feel rather uncomfortable at the thought of slaughtering and preparing an animal for their own plate. We avoid this discomfort by delegating the task to commercial meat producers.

I've killed my own meat for the table before, although I can't say it was a task I was happy with (first off, the circumstances weren't very pleasant, and secondly I had to bash the damn thing's head in with a chopping block for want of proper tools). So does this mean it's good and proper for me to eat meat - or fish at least, since that's what I've killed for myself before?

- Jen

The Other Michael · 04-14-2002, 12:25 PM

Shabbychick,

you can have my share of the oppossum recipes!

cheers,
Michael

The AntiChris · 04-14-2002, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Faux Christian: Do you think eating meat would be more ethical if we were to go out and hunt/kill it ourselves?

Depends completely on your particular value system.

Quote:

Yellow3: So does this mean it's good and proper for me to eat meat - or fish at least, since that's what I've killed for myself before?

It really makes no difference.

Quote:

Yellow3: I've killed my own meat for the table before, although I can't say it was a task I was happy with (first off, the circumstances weren't very pleasant, and secondly I had to bash the damn thing's head in with a chopping block for want of proper tools).

Seems a pretty normal reaction to a particularly unpleasant task.

The point is that the commercial provision of meat products insulates all of us from our natural distaste of animal suffering and can tend to make it all too easy for us to glibly state that "the pleasure I obtain from taste-pleasure outweighs any possible concerns I may have for animal suffering".

Chris

GPLindsey · 04-14-2002, 02:16 PM

Just what WOULD the ultimate Vegan utopia look like anyway? Would all the millions of cows, chickens, and pigs on farms all over the world be freed immediately? Would people have to treat them reverentially, and yield to all of these animals as they roamed our streets and lawns? Since they have been domesticated for centuries, wouldn't they die by the millions, because they wouldn't know how to fend for themselves and bears, wolves, and Fords would have a field day mowing them down? But wait--since we don't want these animals suffering, maybe we should just keep them on farms for their own protection! We could have the agricultural industry, sustained through huge government subsidies, keep feeding all of these animals for the rest of their natural lives. But wait again--then we would be holding these animals against their wills!! Is there no solution!?!?!

I'll put down my bacon & cheddar cheese burger to add this final thought. There is no moral difference between a hunter killing for food and Casper Milktoast and his family sitting down to eat four microwaved chicken and rice entrees. By this logic, the action of a soldier in his missile silo destroying a city 3,000 miles away is less morally questionnable than the act of a soldier killing with his bayonet at some barracade.

droolian · 04-14-2002, 11:17 PM

Most people that eat meat here have stated something along the lines that, “to kill for pleasure is wrong.”

However, you say you eat meat because you like the taste. So in essence you are killing for pleasure. If that’s fine with you, you must come to terms with that by eating meat you harm the environment.
<a href="http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/land_deg/land_deg.html" target="_blank">http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/land_deg/land_deg.html</a>

Quote:

George Wuerthner, U.S. General Accounting Office: …more plant species in the United States have been threatened or eliminated by livestock agriculture than by any other cause. The number of wild animals on the American range has dropped sharply, largely due to their inability to compete with cattle for food. Many species of plants and animals are disappearing annually because of the rapid destruction of rain forests.

Quote:

WATER MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION:
1. Water pollution by nitrates has been worsened by the introduction of intensive farming methods, with increased use of chemical fertilizers and higher concentrations of animals in smaller areas.

<a href="http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l28013.htm" target="_blank">http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l28013.htm</a>

Quote:

Jeremy Rifkin:
In the United States, cattle are destroying much of the West. Between two and three million cattle are currently grazing on hundreds of millions of acres of public land in 11 western states. While western beef cattle make up only a small percentage of the beef production in the United States, they cause significant environmental destruction.
According to a 1991 report prepared by the United Nations, more than 450
million acres on the western range are suffering a 25 to 50 percent reduction in yield, in part because of the overgrazing of cattle.

Is it moral to, for what is essentially dietary pleasure, increase your chances of getting a chronic or degenerative disease, destroy the environment, and cause animals to suffer?

Quote:

GPLindsey:
We could have the agricultural industry, sustained through huge government subsidies, keep feeding all of these animals for the rest of their natural lives. But wait again--then we would be holding these animals against their wills!! Is there no solution!?!?!

The government already artificially keeps down the price of beef through subsidies. Even if they did decide (huge hypothetical) to let the remaining captive animals live out their lives it could be cheaper—it would certainly be cheaper in the long run considering health care cost to people and other factors.

Quote:

Barbara Ferguson, Arab News Correspondent: The question many people are now asking about the environment and water supplies is if it sensible, and sustainable — in view of the cash subsidies, super-low water prices, free or low-cost grazing on public lands, and the other enormous welfare handouts the meat industry receives from the US government, in order to keep the price of meat artificially low, Pimentel says.

<a href="http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=2729&ArY=2001&ArM=6&ArD=11" target="_blank">http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=2729&ArY=2001&ArM=6&ArD=11</a>

Quote:

GPLindsey: Finally, all Nature really intended for us to do was live long enough to procreate and care for our young until they can fend for themselves. Under Nature's rules, any extension of our life expectancy past about age 30 is pure profit. So eat meat!!

Despite all the real scientific data showing the harm of meat, you recommend that your fellow man eat meat. Think people should smoke and perhaps do heroin too---some claim they're fun? Many people do both those and live past thirty. Not trying to be mean, but trying to make a point.

Quote:

LA TIMES:
Moreover, industry groups such as the National Dairy Council, the American Egg Board and the National Cattlemen's Beef Assn. spend millions of dollars to influence nutritional advice given by the government in the form of the Food Pyramid and dietary guidelines issued by the USDA and the Department of Health and Human Services. "Eat more" is the message proclaimed by these groups, and no expense is spared to get across that message.

I want my friends and loved ones to know the truth. When the truth on smoking came out, and people like Dr. Jeffrey Wigand had a difficult time getting truth out, many people began quitting. The tobacco companies make cartoons and advertisements to procure new users, but its use continues to decline.

Quote:

Howard Lyman, author of Mad Cowboy:
"Today...I breathe more easily, knowing that a vigorous debate about potential dangers to our food supply--ranging from E.coli to pfiesteria to salmonella to Mad Cow disease--is permissible. Lawsuits like this stifle speech about matters that have implications for the health and welfare of every American consumer. At a time when threats to food safety are arguably greater than ever—threats exacerbated by intense confinement conditions that abet the spread of disease, and by controversial feeding practices--we need a free and open discussion about these matters."
But the battle isn't over. Thirteen states, including Texas, have passed laws designed to silence and intimidate those who expose unsafe and unhealthy factory farm and slaughterhouse practices. These so-called "food disparagement" laws make it a crime to criticize food and how it is produced.

MadMordigan · 04-15-2002, 12:09 AM

8 pages later, and I still don't find it that simple.

ShabbyChick · 04-16-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadMordigan:
8 pages later, and I still don't find it that simple.

Yep, and I'm STILL waiting for a response from shamon.

ShabbyChick

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04-14-2002, 07:17 AM	#181
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	I think our aversion to seeing animals killed is what has been "learned" over the course of centuries; our natural instinct would have been to remain hunters and enjoy the thrill of the kill. As far as how eating meat affects our longevity--lets say scientists invent a small, flavorless tablet that, if eaten three times a day for the rest of our lives, will allow each of us to live to be 120 yrs old--PROVIDED we don't eat anything else. Would you start taking it? I wouldn't. I'd sooner have 70 or 80 years of enjoying what life has to offer--including breaded pork cutlets with some lemon slices, with german potato salad and a nice stein of beer (yum!)--than avoiding everything pleasurable just to incrementally increase my lifespan. Finally, all Nature really intended for us to do was live long enough to procreate and care for our young until they can fend for themselves. Under Nature's rules, any extension of our life expectancy past about age 30 is pure profit. So eat meat!!

04-14-2002, 10:51 AM	#183
Faux Christian Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Bible Belt Posts: 20	Do you think eating meat would be more ethical if we were to go out and hunt/kill it ourselves? It seems that most of the religious vegans (religious meaning that they believe that eating meat is immoral and bad) don't think we should eat meat because it's mean to the animal i.e. we keep the meat in a cage and feed it simply so that we can make it fat for eating later. So if we were to resort to the hunting/killing society would that make meat-eating any better/more moral?

04-14-2002, 12:25 PM	#185
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Shabbychick, you can have my share of the oppossum recipes! cheers, Michael

04-14-2002, 02:16 PM	#187
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	Just what WOULD the ultimate Vegan utopia look like anyway? Would all the millions of cows, chickens, and pigs on farms all over the world be freed immediately? Would people have to treat them reverentially, and yield to all of these animals as they roamed our streets and lawns? Since they have been domesticated for centuries, wouldn't they die by the millions, because they wouldn't know how to fend for themselves and bears, wolves, and Fords would have a field day mowing them down? But wait--since we don't want these animals suffering, maybe we should just keep them on farms for their own protection! We could have the agricultural industry, sustained through huge government subsidies, keep feeding all of these animals for the rest of their natural lives. But wait again--then we would be holding these animals against their wills!! Is there no solution!?!?! I'll put down my bacon & cheddar cheese burger to add this final thought. There is no moral difference between a hunter killing for food and Casper Milktoast and his family sitting down to eat four microwaved chicken and rice entrees. By this logic, the action of a soldier in his missile silo destroying a city 3,000 miles away is less morally questionnable than the act of a soldier killing with his bayonet at some barracade.

04-15-2002, 12:09 AM	#189
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	8 pages later, and I still don't find it that simple.

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