yguy

And a fine rule it is. I suggest that in lieu of any move on the admins' part to do the obvious, we should adopt this rule and apply it to the one person on this board who has demonstrated such a lack of comprehension to a degree that most of us can scarcely fathom.

Koyaanisqatsi

(edited, by me, to remove accusations of obvious cowardice)

Still waiting....

keyser_soze

You mean someone in here did fathom it? Astounded.... I think we all get what is goal is, but I don't think there is a true way that we can understand it. I know serial killers kill, but I don't undertand it. We know paedophiles perp children, but we don't understand it. Apparently one of us does, but the vast majority don't.

Gurdur

Helllooooo ?????

You haven't answered any of my concrete questions to you.
Should I repeat them ?

What's the problem, eh ?

The Messiah

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
That just because little Sally gets exciting tingles when she bounces on Uncle Harry's knee, that she's going to be able to correlate the reciprocal escalation of her innocent explorations with why her Uncle Harry's pants are now undone?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Koyaanisqatsi

At 14 I would have done anything to get my 12 year old girlfried to bounce on my knee with my pants off. At what ages precisely do I or my partner become a sex criminals?

If it is not age that makes me or my partner a criminal what precisely is it that makes one of us a criminal?

Pat Kelly

This song is getting a little old but go ahead Gurdur and repeat your questions. If I can answer them I will.

Let me also say that simply claiming someone has not answered your questions does not mean your views are correct and the other person's views are wrong. Before you ask your questions and rely upon me to substantiate claims against what you believe by all means feel free to present your evidence that would show me to be wrong. If you can save me the trouble of having to restate my case with more and more evidence I sure would appreciate it. Anyway in the spirit if fair play I will respond one last time to the one who seems most adamant in his or her position.

OK. How would you suggest I should respond to this? What point has been made that I am supposed to respond to. We are taking about self-gratification here and Koyaanisgatsi seems to think it is wrong for anyone to seek to pleasure themselves. In my judgment, anyone who could arrive at such an irrational conclusion is right out to lunch. It seems that some feel Koy’s ability to throw a few words together into a long post must mean he or she actually has something meaningful to say. Actually most of his or her posts and I am going to assume it is a her, harp on one single idea over and over such as “What is the adult’s responsibility?” Not that this is not in itself a good question but Koy seems to think it is the only thing relevant to the entire subject of adult/child sex or the entirety of childhood sexuality as well.

I know Koy is stuck in some mindset that identifies me as a pedophile, not that it would necessarily be a bad thing if I was. I know Koy sees her end of a discussion with me on the subject of adult child sex as her coming to the aid of abused children against someone seeking to have sex with them. Of all the things I have written, 90% has gone right over Koy’s head as she takes it upon herself to decipher the real meanings behind my words and respond not to my words or their stated meanings, but to what she assumes I am really trying to say. Engaging in dialogue with such a person is like holding a discussion between koy, myself and the alter-ego koy has assigned to me. When I talk to people I like to have some sense of who I am talking to as much as the next person. But koy does not comprehend what I say. She only uses it as clues to what she has already decided I am really trying to say so she can confirm some suspicions she seems duty bound to pursue. To engage in a conversation with koy the first thing I would have to do is spend an enormous amount of time and energy getting her to actually listen to me instead of my assigned alter-ego.
I would generally agree with this statement based upon the age of the child but I am not willing to lump all possible sex that could occur between a young child and an adult into a single basket. Now here is some of the proof and concrete evidence you requested and that I have already referred to on several occasions. When I was 5 I was invited to engage in sex with a roughly 18 year old boy and I agreed to do so. I was old enough to tell the difference between pain and pleasure, and what I did and did not enjoy. During the sexual activity, I made decisions about what I did and did not want to do in response to the older boys requests and he respected my decisions though he occasionally tested their resolve. I know from firsthand personal experience what it feels like to engage in sex with someone much older than myself as a 5-year old child and it was nothing like what so many people who have never had any firsthand personal experience claim it is supposed to be. I know what I experienced and I know the effect it had upon me. I know it was not traumatic and I know if I had the power to change things I would not undue the experience from my life.

Now has koy made any effort to understand my real life experience and learn anything from it? None that I am aware of. So what evidence could I possible put forward that would be more valuable than my own experience to dispute her assumption all sex between adults and children must be immoral because the adult happens to be seeking self-gratification? If koy had a bad sexual experience with an adult as a child I would not attempt to deny the reality of her experience if she said she did not enjoy it. But if she indeed had such an experience it is irrelevant to my own experience and there is no reason to assume both experiences are not valid and can not co-exist at the same time. I feel sorry for anyone who is assaulted but I do not agree the proper response to their pain is to deny everyone else a right to potential pleasure. Just because a few people have negative experiences with sex does not justify human sacrifice or in 2003 putting people in prison for 200 years for looking at dirty pictures. I am sensitive to the harm children may experience at the hands of the relatively few adults capable of harming a child and will do everything I can to stop such things. I am also sensitive to the harm people experience when they are thrown in prison for the rest of their lives when their alleged victims only exist in two dimensional space. If there is any relationship between the two it is the injustice and cruelty people are willingly able to inflict upon one another. In my eyes there is no real difference between someone who sexually assaults a child and those who support putting someone in prison for 200 years for looking at dirty pictures. Both are criminals guilty of doing harm to another.
Unless little Billy is brain dead, I am sure he is quite capable of comprehending whether he is experiencing pain or pleasure just as he is capable of responding appropriately and very differently to pain and pleasure. How did koy arrive at the single conclusion that if little Billy is involved in sodomy he would experience it as inflicted pain? Koy is making a big assumption here based upon I do not know what and she seems to have her answers before she does any research. I am willing to concede to koy that it is possible for someone to be forced into sodomy against their will and experience inflicted pain. I doubt she would be able to concede it is also possible for someone to enjoy sodomy even if they are little Billy.

The idea koy raises regarding comprehension related to this is a little beyond me. It seems koy might be trying to state there is some hidden psychological pain that naturally occurs from putting someone’s penis in your mouth or allowing someone to put your penis in their mouth that only shows up years after the event. My response is, if koy does not like the idea of sodomy this is likely a behavior she should try and avoid though again it is presumptuous of her to assume everyone feels the same way she appears to. If you interviewed Billy 5 minutes after the sex ended and he said he enjoyed it, it is pretty safe to assume the effect of the sex was enjoyment. If you interviewed Billy 20-years later and he said he has a lot of emotional pain, shame, guilt and regrets over what happened 20-years ago, I would say it is pretty safe to assume the changed impression of the original event must be related to things that occurred after the event.
I have already done so with an account of my own personal experience that occurred when I was five. If that account was unclear let me summarize by saying I enjoyed it and there is no reason for me to believe my much older partner did not enjoy it as well. Now with that out of the way, what other great mysteries can I uncover for you that you must now seek to dispute. Surely, you cannot accept what I say at face value because it contradicts everything I have ever seen that you have written and likely believe on the subject. You must find a way to challenge the reality of my claim and I have no doubt you will do so because the only other alternative is you must reassess the validity of your own accepted conclusions. You do not strike me as a person able to do such things easily if at all.
I have never stated anything other than the obvious that all humans regardless of age are motivated by self-gratification. We have no choice in the matter because it is hardwired into us including koy though she may be too delusional to admit it. Yes koy too engages in selfish, self-gratifying behaviors though based upon some of her statements they may not involve a sex partner of any age.
Now koy is very likely either drawing this from her imagination or memory and I would not be at all surprised if it was the latter. Once again I will repeat, if this happened to anyone it is or more appropriately was a terrible thing. But just because some people may have had negative experiences with sex does not rule out all the other people who had positive experiences with sex including children. We should not try and bury all the good with the bad just because a few people with some very loud voices had negative experiences with sex. There is nothing inherently wrong with sex and there is nothing inherently wrong with enjoying your sex with others even if they are outside your own age range. Sure everyone is seeking self-gratification. So what? What does that have to do with the price of eggs in Sin Ting. Everyone gets horny and seeks a release for their sexual energy. This is obviously what nature intended for everyone even including koy. She just forgot, that’s all.
I totally disagree with you on this and in my mind it is nothing less that the height of lunacy for anyone to attempt to tell another person they did not enjoy something when they say they did. In fact, that sounds more like a form of brainwashing where someone attempt to convince another they believe something different from what they believe. Actually when you get right down to it the job of convincing children their sex is wrong and evil is nothing less than brainwashing at a societal level. Children do not naturally arrive at such conclusions themselves. It takes people like koy to convince children the penis is a dangerous and evil thing preoccupied with selfish self-gratification.
Well koy may have been talking about predators all along but I certainly wasn’t. Perhaps she was talking to my alter-ego.

continued...

Pat Kelly

continued...

If you have some other explanation I would be interested in hearing it. You speak of social norms as if they have some resemblance to scientific achievement or something. On the scale of social achievement, we are not far advanced beyond those who lived thousands of years ago and a number of societies were more advanced socially than the ones we live in today. For god’s sake, we still condone the state’s right to kill in the name of revenge and justice and still idolize violence for the sake of violence. The most powerful military in history launches an attack against a weak and depleted small country as if there was no other possible alternative and all for the glory of high-tech weaponry and some sick need to see ourselves as victorious. Would you suggest our society takes better care of each other than many past societies. Hell, most people who live in the same building don’t even know each other because everyone is afraid of what we all carry around with us between our legs and most of all the insatiable gratification seeking penis.
Where koy sees black, I see white. Where koy sees red, I see green. Can we really be so far apart? Koy sees Sally and Billy growing within the influences of society to realize they misinterpreted the fun they used to have with Uncle Harry and their correct reaction to this should be shame and regret. Well excuse them for not knowing. I see Sally and Billy having their memory and feelings of what actually took place with Uncle Harry changed and distorted by negative social influences that caused them to see something they once enjoyed as something they should now be ashamed of. For me, the logic of this is rather obvious.

I do not attribute the same level of credence to social views and values that koy seems to. History is too full of a continual stream of inaccuracies right up into the present that shows the fallibility of social concepts. Koy can believe something so strongly she feels it from the core of her center right down to her tows and she can still be wrong as dirt. She can sense from the very essence of her motherly instinct that children need protection from sex and still be a mile from the truth. I place far more stake in the uninhibited behavior of the socially non-indoctrinated child to decipher what is truly right and human than the social ignorance that has long plagued humanity.

Beyond that, I have my own experience that tells me sex is about pleasure and the good things two people exchange together with little if any relevance to age, race, family position or social status. I have usually found it enjoyable when others touch me sexually and I cannot ever remember not being quite capable of rejecting anyone’s sexual advances if it was my decision to do so no matter how old I was. Perhaps koy has different experiences to draw from and if this is the case, she has my deepest and sincerest sympathy. On the other hand, if what she is doing in proceeding with all her negativity towards sex based only upon some unrelated inner need she is trying to fulfill she has nothing but my contempt. And if this is the case, I would have to say that if there ever was an example of true selfishness, greed and self-gratification at the expense of others, her example would have to say she or he has indeed hit rock bottom.

Oh... I almost forgot.

:notworthy

Gurdur

ROFL !
No, it simply means you have evaded my questions.


Here they are again:

Questions:

1. Pat Kelly has now admitted that adult/child penetrative sex might well be coercive; therefore, could Pat Kelly please detail exactly what adult sex acts with a child he finds appropriately permissiable ?
   
2. If penetrative sex in that context is impermissiable (according to Pat Kelly), does this not contradict Pat Kelly's previous statements that
   Quote:

   The greater majority of sexual interactions between adults and children follow the same general pattern as all other types of human sexual interactions

   and
   Quote:

   and are void of the comparatively rare negative elements most have come to associate with all instances of adult/child sex

   ?
   
3. Does Pat Kelly hold adult/infant sex ---- say an infant under 2 years of age --- to be permissiable ?
   If not, why not ?

Perhaps enough to start with ?

Pat Kelly

Whatever two people might decide to do with and to each other that results in both leaving the room with a smile. I’ll leave the details to your imagination.
No it does not contradict my statement. You need to look a bit beyond your own idea that equates sex with intercourse. All types of human sexual interactions follow a general pattern of pleasure seeking behavior and this seeking of pleasure is what I was referring to. I though it was fairly clearly stated that in order for this to work between unequal partners such as adults and children the adult would have to bring themselves down to the child’s level of sex and comfort because if they did not the child would end the encounter. The same basic idea can also be seen between a well experienced prostitute and an older gentlemen who has not been sexually active for some time. The unequal expertise and knowledge means the prostitute must sense and lower herself to the man’s level of sexual competency so the experience would exceed his comfort level.
No contradiction here either. The comparatively rare negative elements I was referring to are forced sex and rape. Most sex that occurs between children and adults does not involve penetration, force or rape. Ever hear of oral sex? It is probably the most employed form of behavior used between adults and children engaging in sexual interactions as well as children engaged with other children of the same age. This is consistent with everything I have said. You must not forget that most sex between adults and children occurs within the family among people who know and very likely love one another. Such relationships tend to rule out force except in the most extreme cases.

Well it is beyond me how anyone might be aroused by licking their two-year-old daughter’s vagina or putting a two-year-old’s penis in their mouth but I guess some people will try anything. You have posed a more difficult question here than I suspect you know though it seems you may only be attempting to trap me outside my own logic. The very idea of someone engaging in sex with a two-year-old and how can there be any answer but the obvious? Well if you expect me to limit my answer to what is socially acceptable at the expense of logic you do not know me well.

Surely, a two year old is not going to engage in any serious flirtatious behavior with an adult at least no two year old I have ever seen. This would lead me to assume any sexual behavior an adult might engage in with such a young child would be a one-way exchange only involving the adult and not the child. You will have to excuse me because I am considering this as I write it. Having said that I must admit that a possible if not probable response a two year old child would have to someone pleasuring them sexually as described above would be a smile which would kind of say they liked it and experienced it as pleasurable. Therefore, here is my conclusion and answer to your question as I see it:

There is no age before sex begins because it is part of the biological package we are born with. To try and draw a line that says on this side of the line one is too young to experience sex and on the other side of the line mature enough to experience sex would not be logical. There is also no line that I know of where on one side of the line the experience of sex would be psychologically harmful and on the other side only the fulfillment of a psychological need.

From a psychological perspective I cannot see where someone pleasuring a child as described above would do them any harm while at the same time, pleasuring a child sexually could affect his or her most basic expectations from life. A child that experiences a lot of touching, and skin to skin contact with their primary caregivers usually turns out better developed in many areas not the least of which is their psychological health and positive expectations from life. There have been studies done on this and if you like, you can look them up for yourself.

All of this of course assumes the child is smiling and not crying in response to the sexual activity and if the child is crying as a response to the adults behavior the adult has crossed an obvious line and in now assaulting the child.

Doing something to someone or engaging them in such a way that evokes a smile as a response, is a pretty clear biological signal they are experiencing the interaction as pleasurable. There is nothing magical about sex that should rationally exclude it from this same understanding. Whatever we do as we reach out to one another that ends in a smile cannot be bad even if it encroaches into the taboo areas we have learned to call sex.

Some good questions. I hope you will give the answers a bit of consideration.

HelenM

I see you're continuing to ignore all the evidence of adults still traumatized and suffering because authority figures had sexual relationships with them when they were children.

Or to explain it away as entirely caused by societal negative attitudes.

What do you hope to gain by trying to make a case that adult-child sex can be beneficial? What's in it for you?

Helen