Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Philosoft · 05-29-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No he isn't. I think you have the wrong understanding of free will. Free will is not a supernatural ability that allows you to do anything you want, including choose not to die, if death is upon you. Free will is being able to make choices, good and evil, right and wrong while you are live.

Really? Let's look at a common example. Allegedly, God doesn't interfere in most instances of human violence because of the free will thing. Now, suppose I was going to kill someone and God kills me for whatever reason. Why isn't my free will to kill someone being violated by God?

Quote:

You have no control over death, therefore free will never enters the picture - you can't choose to live for as long as you want.

Well, obviously I have a limited amount of control over my death. I can choose to commit suicide tomorrow, or not. But I think this is irrelevant in any case.

winstonjen · 05-29-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No he isn't. I think you have the wrong understanding of free will. Free will is not a supernatural ability that allows you to do anything you want, including choose not to die, if death is upon you. Free will is being able to make choices, good and evil, right and wrong while you are live. You have no control over death, therefore free will never enters the picture - you can't choose to live for as long as you want.

No, but we can choose (to a certain degree) when, where and HOW we die, can't we?

nemesis855 · 05-30-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
How are we God's slaves? Does he force you to do anything? He doesn't force you to do anything. He gives you options, and its your choice of which path you want to take. How is that slavery?

This statement is somewhat inconsistent with your earlier premise that God had the "right" to destroy us as a potter could destroy his pottery. If God has some sort of "property" interest in us, then our "choices" are subject to God's veto (or worse). Why should I not simply be able to "choose" to go to Heaven (assuming such a place exists) without regard for dictates of the Bible, other "holy" books or even God himself?

- Nemesis855

BioBeing · 05-30-2003, 01:46 PM

Why does God have to keep testing some people, and yet not test others at all? I know some very good christians (they tithe and everything) who have lost not one but two babies within months after birth. And yet me, an atheist, and my wife, a weak christian, have two perfectly healthy young children.

Its not like each test comes with an explanantion, does it?

Quote:

Memo from God:
To Fred:
You are being tested because you took my name in vain once, when you dropped an anvil on your toe. For your punishment, I will strike your wife barren, give your baby leukemia and cause a hurricane to knock down your house.

Quote:

Memo from God:
To Harry:
Why did you have to go and kill those poor defenseless women? Anyway, since you repented, I'll let you off. Just don't do it again. By the way, look in your drive way - I got you a new car.

If the tests were from a loving God (assuming that he needs to test us at all), why are they not consistent? A direct cause and effect type of thing. In reality, one might be tempted to view these rewards/punishment things as random acts, since there seems to be no correlation between "christianity" and amount of testing. In fact, until I have evidence to suggest otherwise, I'll assume they are just that.

hinduwoman · 05-30-2003, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
And this is where the lack of understanding between non-Christians comes in. Our life on Earth is meaningless compared to our eternal life. Our 70-100 year life span is a split second compared to eternity. Why would Jobs family care? They are with God in heaven for all eternity, never to face pain or suffering, or hate etc. again. I can't wait to be with God in Heaven. He is the most awesome being there is, and His love is imeasurable.

Magus55, you life must be truly horrible to take such an attitude! That is very sad.

Then your only logical option is suicide

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 05-30-2003, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
If a potter makes a pot, is he not allowed to break the pot if he so chooses? Isn't it his creation to break if he decides to?

So you're in favor of abortion then?

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 05-30-2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman
Magus55, you life must be truly horrible to take such an attitude! That is very sad.

Then your only logical option is suicide

No no no no no--the only logical attitude is to have multiple wives, and keep them pregnant. Kill the kids as soon as they;re baptised! More souls for God! Don't forget--keep on repenting the evil you do. Since you're doing this for a GOOD CAUSE, this should be easy.

Magus, it only follows from your supposition that people are better off with God.

Magus55 · 05-31-2003, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ
So you're in favor of abortion then?

Nope because God creates all life, not humans - humans are only the vessel and instrument for which to bring life into the world. God is ultimate authority over all life.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

keyser_soze · 05-31-2003, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Nope because God creates all life, not humans - humans are only the vessel and instrument for which to bring life into the world. God is ultimate authority over all life.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Well, since it was written in a book it MUST be true!

God exists because the bible says so, the bible is true because god says so...god exists because the bible says so the bible is ......ad infini nauseum...

Magus55 · 05-31-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
Well, since it was written in a book it MUST be true!

God exists because the bible says so, the bible is true because god says so...god exists because the bible says so the bible is ......ad infini nauseum...

Guess we can rule out Columbus or Cleopatra from being real since we only find their legacy in history books.

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