Fuct

We all have to make sacrafices somewhere. I'm willing to make one here. I'm against 10 commandments and all that crap in schools, courthouses, etc.

For all Americans this was a pretty major tradegy so I can see where they are coming from. I'm going to have to somewhat disagree (for the first time!) with American Atheists here and just say let it be. It's not worth it. This would only make us look like the fools they want us to look like.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Fuct ]</p>

Vorkosigan

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Jayhawker Soule

I find this far more offensive than any memorial. I worked closely with the PATH for over a decade. None of those people deserve what occurred.

simian

For the non-theists out there who are not opposed to this, I want to restate a point I made earlier:

If this cross stays (with your approval, or at least no opposition), and a group goes about making replicas of it to put on every courthouse lawn in the US, what will your response be? If your don't find the original memorial offensive, why would your find the replica offensive?

Heck, it would even be going onto land in every community that was harmed by the events of September 11 (I think it would be hard to find a community that had no connections at all with September 11, be it former residents, jobs, people who just visited there a few weeks/months ago, etc).

My concern is that this will become a stepping stone to shove religion even farther down everybody's throats. It is best to nip it in the bud before it is used as an excuse to put more Christian monuments on public property, IMHO.

Simian

queue

I am against that cross being included in a memorial, unless it is just labeled as debris from the WTC site. Including it in a memorial would just give christians one more thing to point at when they try to destroy the wall between church and state.

IMO, that cross should be auctioned off and the money used for the family of the victims or the cost of the clean up.

Berenger Sauniere

I have reasonable doubt my "deserve one another" should be interpreted as "deserve what occurred."

tragic_pizza

That may indeed be how you would describe it. I would expect a bit more reasoned approach by those who would frame the actual text of explanation. Perhaps referring to people relying on their faith to help them cope with the horror and loss.

One could envision the WTC Cross, along with other religious symbols left by mourners and carried by workers. Perhaps one of the athiests who worked on the site could donate something as well.

Toto

And how is my explanation not reasonable? It's not very political, but it's perfectly reasonable. Some people relied on their faith to give them the strength to fly the airplanes into the two buildings, trusting that they were doing their God's work and would be rewarded in paradise with unlimited sexual ecstasy. (And the evidence showed they were on the right side since the damage was even more than they planned.) Others in the face of tragedy reverted to childhood fantasies and looked for signs that their God might still care for them. The only "reasonable" explanations would come from psychologists, not feel-good self-help spirituality.

The Other Michael

Maybe a copy of Smith's "Atheism: the case against God"?

Sounds good to me.

cheers,
Michael

vagrant

Distilled:

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

If you allow it to be left on the site, it opens the door. A door most of us want to remain shut. Whether this particular instance bothers you or not, if allowed, it will lead to one that will.