4th Generation Atheist

My problem with that option has always been that I rather liked the patriotic part of that little ceremony; more or less as soon as I understood what the Pledge was about I liked the idea of standing up every weekday morning and reiterating my idealistic support of the concept of a nation "indivisible" and dedicated to "liberty and justice for all". Sitting out the Pledge would have felt too much like I was saying I didn't support these things, or that I didn't love my country. My opinion remains that one must take some degree of pride in one's own tribal origins, whatever they might be; these place one in the "family of humanity". I was raised to criticize my government whenever necessary (or sometimes, I think, whenever possible ) but to take pride in the fact that one may do so here, in our place and time. My parents would not have put up with having me sit out the Pledge entirely, and not coincidentally I would never have been satisfied with doing so.

(This is not to suggest you're not a patriot, however, vonmeth; it could just be that the daily exercise didn't have any meaning for you. Everybody's different.)

Even a discussion of my reasons would not have fixed matters. Like most kids, I didn't want to feel "left out" or "different" (though my precocious understanding of these matters and strong upbringing on same arguably made me just that! ) and I certainly didn't want to look like I hated America just because so many of my classmates believed in God. (Incidentally, I at that time usually assumed they'd eventually grow out of it, like they did with Santa Claus. I'm still a little disappointed they didn't but, oh well. To each its own.) I didn't mind their knowing I was an atheist, once they learned to keep their fists to themselves (note to atheist parents: martial arts lessons) but I wanted people to know that we were residents and citizens of the "unity in diversity" country. Still do.

Rusting Car Bumper

I could go on all day how I think he is doing more harm than good.

We atheists shoot ourselves in the foot quite frequently. We get too involved with Church State seperation and refuting the points of religion to the point that that is all we are at times.

DC

Rusting Car Bumper

"There is another" - Yoda.

What we reallyneed to do is to change the focus of nonbelief organizations. We need to change them from merely C-S seperation groups and groups that bitch about religion to groups that do positively things in our communities out in the open.

Right now when you think of atheist groups you think of the two things I mentioned.

If these groups were more involved with creating and promoting positive philosophies, values, and actions then its those things peole would think of when they think of atheist organizations. This would apply to atheists as well. That is, more atheists would end up willing to join them and participate if our organizations were something that they saw as positive.

Doing and promoting good things is a practice which feeds itself.

DC

CaptainDave

DigitalChicken,

I prefer Star Trek over Star Wars but I love your Yoda quote:

Your way is indeed a viable alternative. Openly doing good deeds under a flag of atheism is a great idea - and a very noble one. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

But this is a CSS forum. I think you need a forum of your own. (I stand under the great sky and spread my arms wide. I shout an appeal to the unknown deities who rule II ) Do we need a new activist forum? One dedicated to doing good works under the flag of atheism? I think we do. Who else agrees?

That appeal made, I must say that I don't think your agenda need be in conflict with political action. Do your good deeds and let all of America know about it. We'll watch your back.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: CaptainDave ]</p>

Buffman

D-C

Though I completely agree with you about freethinkers doing positive and productive things within their neighborhoods, communities, state and nation, I find your attitude about C-S separation a little disconcerting.

During the early 1960's, I was a member of the Amarillo Jr. Chamber of Commerce. My wife was a Jaycette. Do you recall the general political and religious atmosphere of the early 60's "Golden Spread?" As you drove into town on Rte. 66, there was a huge billboard, with a smiling picture of the Mayor on it, proclaiming, "IMPEACH EARL WARREN." At the bottom of the billboard it announced that it was sponsored by the John Birch Society.

As I recall, my wife and I were the only SAC and, horrors of all horrors, "Yankee" members of the "JC's." I got ribbed more about that fact than any religious/non-religious philosophy I held. I also got ribbed by the Strategic Air Command folks, with whom I aircrewed nuclear bombers, about belonging to an organization filled with such a far right wing bunch of locals. In other words, the relations between the local military base and the community were rather strained...in many important areas.

Though it took more than a full year, I was able to obtain the necessary clearances and coordinate an Amarillo AFB (The SAC Unit)--Amarillo JC Day. This was facilitated by my being a member of the SAC Junior Officer's Council. We entertained the JC's to an unprecedented tour of the entire SAC unit (with the only exception being the weapons areas) including the first civilian tour of a SAC Ground Alert Facility. It was quite an eye-opener for the JC's who later on sponsored an AAFB Day Celebration for the entire base which included the huge Tech Training unit located there.

The point of my sharing this story with everyone is to point out that Freethinkers have been doing what you recommend for a long time. However, that was before the Constitutional protections (Freedoms/Liberties) to which I have sworn my defense came under attack by a group of Christian cultists. I consider the 1st Amendment C-S separation policy the most unique, and keystone, gift of our Constitution. I consider anything which threatens its "wall" to be an attack on the most worthy and unifying part of our national heritage.

IMHO, too many Americans do not appreciate what the wall of separation between religion and government has meant to the success of our nation and the principles for which we, all, once stood. Therefore I will continue to harp on the importance of C-S separation at every opportunity even if that means upsetting some folks who may not feel as strongly as I do about that specific issue.

Splat

DC,

You make an excellent point. But I wonder whether non-belief is strong enough social glue to hold such community servise oriented groups together. Even in the few places where there are enough of us (i.e. self-identified atheists) to even form a decent-sized group, the two things its members are most likely to have in common are 1) religious people don't like us and 2) they want to marginalize our position in society. I'd be happy to be wrong here, but that's my hunch.

I still think that most Americans do support separation, and what we're seeing here are the antics of a frightned and not terribly bright minority who are emboldened by Bush/Ashcroft. (The storm clouds were gathered long before Newdow ambled out on the lawn with his lightning rod.) Which is why, IMHO, groups like Interfaith Alliance and AU are going to do us more good than AA and the FFRF.

Buffman: <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Rusting Car Bumper

Not trying will never prove a thing.

However, there is evidence to the point. More socially based groups (like the Church of Freethought) as opposed to egghead groups, bash religion groups and exclusive Church state seperation groups have seen great increases in participation in a short amount of time where they have been started. This shows that clearly there is a want for this sort of thing.

Secondly, there is no reason to limit these groups to the label "atheist" as non-believers of different stripes have more in common than they have not in common.

Thirdly, the Church of Freethought as an example, has gotten almost wildly positive press. Its hard to name other groups who are getting ANY positive press let alone almost exclusively positive press.

I see social service or some similar type org as merely the next "evolutionary" step.

very much indeed. My sentiments exactly.

DC

Rusting Car Bumper

What do you find disconcerting about believing that:

• C-S seperation problems are a symptom of a larger disease,
• its more effective to treat the disease than the symptoms,
• atheists PR and image problems are caused by our over focus on C-S seperation and not much else,
• That we should be engaging the help of believers instead of bashing them

The anecdote has little to do with what I'm talking about. If freethinkers had been doing what I am suggesting, there would be local freethought service organizations in almost every major American city by now. There isn't. I can't name one.

That's great but its a peice of paper. If the general populace does not think it protects them but hinders them then fighting C-S seperation cases helps not. Laws change and even constitutions change. Attitudes which are supportable by the masses change before laws change. You can't change or hope to uphold laws forever if you dont have the attitudes of the public behind you to some degree.

If all you have protecting you is laws then you aren't protected. People have to mentally enjoin themselves in that law.

DC

Polar Bear

That's a good idea.

Toto

The idea of an activist forum has been floated, but we're a little short of moderators now.