Bede

Connections! Whoops.

Bede

As Steven told us, on page 159 of 'The Blind Watchmaker', Richard Dawkins writes 'A miracle is something which happens, but which is exceedingly surprising.If a marble statue of the Virgin Mary suddenly waved its hand at us we should treat it as a miracle , because all our experience and knowledge tells us that marble doesn't behave like that.'

Dawkins continues: 'I have just uttered the words "May I be struck by lightening this minute". If lightening did strike me in the same minute, it would be treated as a miracle. But actually neither of these two occurances would be classified by science as utterly impossible. They would simply be judged as very improbable, the waving statue much more improbable than the lightening."

He later explains "If by sheer coincidence, all the molecules just happened to move in the same direction at the same moment, the hand would move. If they all reversed direction at the same moment the hand would move back. In this way it is possible for the marble statue to wave at us. It could happen."

So, he gives a scientific explanation and makes clear this is possible (if mind blowingly unlikely). By clear implication, the unmentioned supernatural explanation is not possible. For Dawkins, a miracle is an improbable thing and not a supernatural occurance. He doesn't even consider the possibility.

I rest my case with apologies for wasting everyone's time with the thankless task of getting Steven to admit he's wrong.

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

Layman

No apologies necessary Bede, it had definite entertainment value.

Sojourner553

Bede,

To me, the obvious miracle -- that no one could deny-- would be if everyone woke up one day and "knew" what was "God's Will". Of course this would have to be the SAME view/knowledge. Then the criteria for good vs. evil would entail whether a person CHOSE to act against God's Will -- rather than the major effort one sees today (with major variation/disagreement) as to what God's Will really "is".

When I look backwards at history, I am struck by how a person's fervent views on God's "Will" is, mostly shaped by their parochial views, narrow experiences/biases -- As if the concept of "God's will" came solely from within their local experience -- not from an external spiritual force.

Why else does one see two sincere religious individuals with both convinced "they" are part of an elect following God's Will, while the other is working in league with the Devil. One obvious example would be during the Catholic/Protestant wars in Europe! (Note this was entire groups of people -- not just a "few" individuals.)

Quibbling whether seeing a statue of Mary's arm move is a true miracle is sort of like counting how many angels "could" dance on the head of a pin. Afterall, how do we know the angels aren't really aliens. (Just kidding! But still an example of how one can come up with "creative" solutions -- sort of like Arthur C. Clark's 2001 A SPACE ODYSSEY.) Again, if everyone woke up with the same "knowledge" of God/God's Will, this would be the ultimate miracle...and definitely one that would be hard for me to deny.

BTW -- I don't see Mithra included on the pagan list of gods? Does anyone here deny the Mithra similarities???

Sojourner

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Steven Carr

Of course, this is just the fundamentalist word games that fill me with disgust and loathing, and make me regard people like Bede as scum.

Dawkins says that the molecules could theoretically move by quantum tunneling (I assume Bede agrees this is a *theoretical* possibility), but pours scorn on the idea that this is a sensible explanation, and says that even hypothetical aliens who live such a long time 'would blench at a miracle of this magnitude').

Dawkins makes clear that the improbability of the theoretical quantum tunneling needed for a *natural* explanation of waving statue is of an unimaginable scale.

But of course, Bede , being a Christian apologist, wishes to twist the plain meaning of words whenever it suits him. I find such an attitude sickens my stomach. Perhaps personal abuse is not called for, but I really cannot *abide* the *disgusting* antics of people like Bede.

Steven Carr

Perhaps Layman can tell us his interpretation of what Dawkins wrote 'A miracle is something which happens, but which is exceedingly surprising.If a marble statue of the Virgin Mary suddenly waved its hand at us we should treat it as a miracle , because all our experience and knowledge tells us that marble doesn't behave like that.', and Dawkins later says we should '..blench at a miracle of this magnitude'.

I also think there is a shadow of doubt in Bede's mind as he has repeatedly refused to put Dawkins actual words on his web page. His readers are only allowed to see Bede's claims of what Dawkins wrote, not what Dawkins actually wrote.

I'm sure though that Bede can find a way to turn Dawkins words '... a miracle of this magnitude' into a claim by Dawkins that no miracle of any kind has occurred. Seeing Bede attempt that would have definite entertainment value!

Layman

Sounds like Dawkins is the one playing the word games.

But what is also humorous is seeing a skeptic complaining about an allegedly poor article on another person's website. I mean, seriously. Some of the stuff in the Infidel.org library is pretty lame. I know, I know, you guys do not endorse it all. Typical disclaimers, but you know some hammerhead is going to think there is something to is simply because it appears there.

Anyway, it's your library, put in it what you will.

Steven Carr

I don't think so. Hypothesising aliens who live a very, very long time and see pretty much everything in their lives and then saying that even they '.. would blench at a miracle of this magnitude.' when seeing a statue of the Virgin Mary waving, does not sound like somebody claiming that a miracle like that has a perfectly good natural explanation.

It sounds to me like somebody calling it a miracle.