Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lunatic.retired · 02-02-2003, 05:44 PM

If Dubya wants to thank god for the *fact* that the astronauts are now in heaven, how come he didn't thank, or perhaps praise god for killing them in the first place? After all, isn't this probably just part of his [gods]great plan?

I live in a cyclone belt. It amuses me to hear xians thank god for his infinite mercy when a category 5 storm passes harmlessly by our town. None of them seem to thank god for inventing cyclones in the first place, or for initially sending the damn thing in our general direction.

Dubya is pathetic and should keep his mindless religous dribble to himself. As a non-believer I find his constant stream of godcrap offensive in the extreme.

Don't forget, when Dubya invades Iraq, the troops will be going in with, in the words of Bob Dylan, "god on their side"

Be afraid!

Bree · 02-02-2003, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lisarea
His speechwriters need to hook him up to some kind of device where they can deliver electrical shocks when he strays from his prescribed comments. Like one of those dog barking collars or something.

Unfortunately, his speechwriters BELIEVE all that BS. My Jekyll's uncle is one of them, and let me tell you, Christmas with the family is pure hell.

Radorth · 02-02-2003, 08:40 PM

Re: Mel the free thinker. Watch and learn

Quote:

I must disagree.

Yb normal gasps. Rad sniffs the air

Quote:

While there are certainly Christians who do that, they have not had much success in government in doing so. Abortion is still legal. Gay rights are expanding. Prayer has not been forced back in school...

Yet property taxes are killing us here in New York State. In some cases, environmental laws have become so extreme that a person cannot even dump sand on his own property because it was labeled a wetlands. SUV's are seen by some as a horrible "evil". Others want to totally ban guns. Political speech has been curtailed by McCain-Feingold. These are hardly Christian agendas, and yet it's all done or trying to be done for our own good.

It's not just religionists who are a threat to freedom.

Who opened the window? I smell fresh air. Gosh, actual facts to consider. Where the heck am I?

Indeed it's the people who decide what is good for everybody else, whether religious or not. And the non-Christians hold their own, where I live, anyway, if not in Alabama. Hell, homosexuals can make out in front of the kids trying to watch the Dodgers play. Move out here if you feel oppressed and downtrodden by fundies.

Be warned though. There is something seriously wrong with a city where you need a license to kill a skunk, but not a viable human. Don't try to adopt here either. They have 100,000 kids in the county foster care system, and they make heroic efforts to prevent their adoption. The latest amazing idea for making the world better: take you drivers license if you don't renew your dog license.

Now isn't that funny? You come to a really "liberal" area and find there's some kind of competition to see who can have the biggest and most useless bureacracy.

Someday we'll learn that bureacracies have no conscience, and make no distinctions between babies and skunks. And bureacracies generally don't get smaller, more efficient and less powerful. Meanwhile Bush will be gone in 2 years.

Rad

cricket · 02-02-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

I agree with VP that the prez has a right to inject religious thoughts into such speeches. In doing such, he is in no way violating the First Amendment; indeed, his speech is protected under the First Amendment, IMO.

Well of course he has the right to say whatever. He can even make astronauts� kids feel like low-life pieces of shit right now if that�s what he wants to do. I wasn�t calling for his impeachment; I was calling on him to show a little class. He has the right to say what he wants, just as I have the right to yap at funerals about my beliefs � but I don�t. It�s too personal a matter; one needs to consider the beliefs of the dead and of the grieving family. If you�re Christian, and you�re talking to a Christian, and you *know* the deceased was a Christian, then fine, say something privately about that god y�all share. Otherwise, don�t. Make them some kick-ass cupcakes and keep your mouth shut if you don�t know. In the case that they or the dead were unbelievers, you�re adding to the pain. In the case that they or the dead were believers, why is it so vital that the creator be mentioned? I daresay they�ve heard of him already.

Will they think, if Bush doesn�t mention heaven, that their loved one doesn�t get to go?

ybnormal · 02-02-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by emur:
I don't see how the words of Christians are forcing anyone to consume Christianity. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but hearing and consuming are two different things.

You said and I responded about President "Bush" doing the forcing... now it's "Christians" in general. The entire point was that it was MY President, not some generic xians.

You then selected one totally unimportant word that I used, and then avoided responding to my point. If "consume" is not close enough to "hearing" for you to try to understand my point, I should have no patience with you in the future.

You even ignored the question I asked, which would have provided something for us to move forward with...

Do you care to suggest a more visible, more powerful and more influential Christian or Christian Spokesman alive in The United States today, than The President of those United States?

If you can't understand the simple thrust of that question, then...

Several years ago we had some street preachers going up and down the main street of our city screaming their fundamentalist salvation message. I didn't like hearing them, or seeing them for that matter, but I opposed their presence based on their yelling and screaming, not simply on their words. Hearing words does not force any religion on anyone. Passing laws that are uniquely religious based does, and that must be opposed.

Again, what does any of that have to do with your original statement OR my response to your original statement? When a Christian President of the United States, is making an "Official Speech To The Nation", he is not being some street preacher. (please see my above question in italics)

But, hey... I'm not above trying one more time...

Are you saying that there is absolutely NOTHING your President could say on national TV that would offend you?

HINT: Unless you can say, "No", then you have caved in to this entire exchange and caved in to my (and Atheists galore) entire point here.

I don't see how Bush mentioning the name of God...

Again, you are changing the discussion to suit your own devices, by trying to pare his entire message down to some seemingly innocent mention of a single word... please play fair... you will then tend to come across as actually being fair.

...in an attempt to console the families of the Columbia disaster is campaigning for a theocracy.

Look, xian Bush would NOT be xian president without some 35% hard core xian voter base, without the mega bucks of wealthy xians and xian organizations, without the thousands of xian churches handing out slanted xian printed voter guides in return for millions of collection-plate xian dollars or without 5 activist christians on the xian Supreme Court... so, ANYTIME xian Bush says ANYTHING about the xian religion, he is talking directly to xians and no one else. To try to deny that ANY politician does not do exactly that with his voters, is to expose a xian bias bigger than your heaven. Try some reality.

Concrete evidence?
Not enough theocrats in Congress where the laws are made.
Not enough theocrats on the Supreme Court where laws are interpeted.
Not enough action by Bush as the leader of the Executive Branch to bring it about. (Faith-based initiative isn't a step toward a theocracy. The religious groups involved are diverse and could never have the influence to make it happen. However, I oppose this initiative on other grounds.)
Not enough theocrats in the voting population to elect officials who would bring about a theocracy.

I heard this all before when Reagan was elected. Yet, no theocracy.

You originally said, not "anytime soon"... what is "soon"?

Soon, to me, is certainly within the second-term's next 6 years and only 2 SC appointments... and we certainly don't have to have a full blown theocracy anyway, before many of my rights, as well as many of YOUR rights are eliminated. The ONLY real evidence I need to know that it CAN happen is to see folks like yourself with your head in the sand. It's folks like you who really deserve what CAN happen.

I must disagree. While there are certainly Christians who do that, they have not had much success in government in doing so. Abortion is still legal. Gay rights are expanding. Prayer has not been forced back in school...

All xians do that... and you don't have a clue what's going on in this country. The folks who are pushing a Biblical America have not even hit their stride yet. Read a few threads on the C-SS forum, altho I doubt you can see thru the sand. FWIW, most Atheists here don't seem to see it either.

Yet property taxes are killing us here in New York State. In some cases, environmental laws have become so extreme that a person cannot even dump sand on his own property because it was labeled a wetlands. SUV's are seen by some as a horrible "evil". Others want to totally ban guns. Political speech has been curtailed by McCain-Feingold. These are hardly Christian agendas, and yet it's all done or trying to be done for our own good.

It's not just religionists who are a threat to freedom.

I didn't say that there are not others... I said, "there is only ONE organized, majority group of people in the US who claim that most everything they do is for peoples own good."

Please don't just throw out words... name another group that fits my description... that was my ONLY point there.

I respect the astronauts who died yesterday with the highest respect. They worked in very dangerous conditions to further the cause of science, which really is for our own good. Their lives and their work will carry on even though they are no longer with us, and their determination is an example for us all.

Oh, I tend to doubt their lives... will carry on... you're just trying to sneak in another xian Bushism ain't cha? You got caught too!

I think you just made my entire point again. That's exactly what Bush does every single time in his Presidential Speeches To The Nation.

It's kinda like, all you xians have the same secret decoder ring that Bush has, and Atheists refuse to waste their money to buy one.

To me, Bush's mention of God pales in comparison to their efforts to make the world a better place for humankind.

There you go again... I love you folks... you know, you're not being very subtle... I love how you guys try to shame people... it don't work on me.

I'll just respond to your "pales by comparison" put down by repeating my question...

Are you saying that there is absolutely NOTHING your President could say on national TV that would offend you?

PEACE!

Born Free · 02-03-2003, 05:02 AM

It's Allah's punishment

Idiot's statement

emur · 02-03-2003, 05:48 AM

Look ybnormal. If you are that worried about a Christian theocracy being established in America because we have a Christian prez who mentions God in condolences to the families of the astronauts, fine.

I believe it's not going to happen. It didn't happen with Carter. It didn't happen with Reagan and Falwell's Moral Majority, it didn't happen with Bush Sr and the Christian Coalition (which is today only a faint shadow of what it was), and it's not going to happen with this Bush.

Theocratic Christians are a small minority in this country. Hell, America is less than 10% evangelical. Check Barna's site for the breakdown.

I have neither the time or the energy to get into a verbal game with you. As such, I am content to allow others to make whatever judgments they wish about our posts and our choice of words.

Mel

carbonite · 02-03-2003, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
I dont see God not allowing them to heaven based on any lack of biblical knowledge...

"Paul" did.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Radorth · 02-03-2003, 08:16 AM

In spite of at least three declarations to the contrary, Yb has never understood why Christians like me are pro-separation. Personally I think he's on a bit of a crusade to find a witch where there is none. I've said I would cut the Boy Scouts off from any govt help but I'm sure he thinks I'm not being honest. YB I've asked you before. Are you happy with the Supreme Court's decisions so far or not? The "theists" lose 9 out of 10 if they are lucky. In fact the only one we've won to my knowledge, recently, is the right to meet and pray amongst ourselves as a school club.

Golly gee. We can still pray quietly in public.

Rad

Godless Dave · 02-03-2003, 08:27 AM

I think the president's comments were insensitive but mostly made him look like an idiot. He didn't get three sentences out of his mouth before he brought his god into it. He may as well have knocked on the podium for good luck.

IIRC the Israeli astronaut was a non-observant Jew, so likely an agnostic or atheist but not necessarily.

02-02-2003, 05:44 PM	#61
lunatic.retired Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: desolation row Posts: 58	re; dubya god dribble If Dubya wants to thank god for the fact that the astronauts are now in heaven, how come he didn't thank, or perhaps praise god for killing them in the first place? After all, isn't this probably just part of his [gods]great plan? I live in a cyclone belt. It amuses me to hear xians thank god for his infinite mercy when a category 5 storm passes harmlessly by our town. None of them seem to thank god for inventing cyclones in the first place, or for initially sending the damn thing in our general direction. Dubya is pathetic and should keep his mindless religous dribble to himself. As a non-believer I find his constant stream of godcrap offensive in the extreme. Don't forget, when Dubya invades Iraq, the troops will be going in with, in the words of Bob Dylan, "god on their side" Be afraid!

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02-02-2003, 10:01 PM	#65
ybnormal Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 430	Originally posted by emur: I don't see how the words of Christians are forcing anyone to consume Christianity. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but hearing and consuming are two different things. You said and I responded about President "Bush" doing the forcing... now it's "Christians" in general. The entire point was that it was MY President, not some generic xians. You then selected one totally unimportant word that I used, and then avoided responding to my point. If "consume" is not close enough to "hearing" for you to try to understand my point, I should have no patience with you in the future. You even ignored the question I asked, which would have provided something for us to move forward with... Do you care to suggest a more visible, more powerful and more influential Christian or Christian Spokesman alive in The United States today, than The President of those United States? If you can't understand the simple thrust of that question, then... Several years ago we had some street preachers going up and down the main street of our city screaming their fundamentalist salvation message. I didn't like hearing them, or seeing them for that matter, but I opposed their presence based on their yelling and screaming, not simply on their words. Hearing words does not force any religion on anyone. Passing laws that are uniquely religious based does, and that must be opposed. Again, what does any of that have to do with your original statement OR my response to your original statement? When a Christian President of the United States, is making an "Official Speech To The Nation", he is not being some street preacher. (please see my above question in italics) But, hey... I'm not above trying one more time... Are you saying that there is absolutely NOTHING your President could say on national TV that would offend you? HINT: Unless you can say, "No", then you have caved in to this entire exchange and caved in to my (and Atheists galore) entire point here. I don't see how Bush mentioning the name of God... Again, you are changing the discussion to suit your own devices, by trying to pare his entire message down to some seemingly innocent mention of a single word... please play fair... you will then tend to come across as actually being fair. ...in an attempt to console the families of the Columbia disaster is campaigning for a theocracy. Look, xian Bush would NOT be xian president without some 35% hard core xian voter base, without the mega bucks of wealthy xians and xian organizations, without the thousands of xian churches handing out slanted xian printed voter guides in return for millions of collection-plate xian dollars or without 5 activist christians on the xian Supreme Court... so, ANYTIME xian Bush says ANYTHING about the xian religion, he is talking directly to xians and no one else. To try to deny that ANY politician does not do exactly that with his voters, is to expose a xian bias bigger than your heaven. Try some reality. Concrete evidence? Not enough theocrats in Congress where the laws are made. Not enough theocrats on the Supreme Court where laws are interpeted. Not enough action by Bush as the leader of the Executive Branch to bring it about. (Faith-based initiative isn't a step toward a theocracy. The religious groups involved are diverse and could never have the influence to make it happen. However, I oppose this initiative on other grounds.) Not enough theocrats in the voting population to elect officials who would bring about a theocracy. I heard this all before when Reagan was elected. Yet, no theocracy. You originally said, not "anytime soon"... what is "soon"? Soon, to me, is certainly within the second-term's next 6 years and only 2 SC appointments... and we certainly don't have to have a full blown theocracy anyway, before many of my rights, as well as many of YOUR rights are eliminated. The ONLY real evidence I need to know that it CAN happen is to see folks like yourself with your head in the sand. It's folks like you who really deserve what CAN happen. I must disagree. While there are certainly Christians who do that, they have not had much success in government in doing so. Abortion is still legal. Gay rights are expanding. Prayer has not been forced back in school... All xians do that... and you don't have a clue what's going on in this country. The folks who are pushing a Biblical America have not even hit their stride yet. Read a few threads on the C-SS forum, altho I doubt you can see thru the sand. FWIW, most Atheists here don't seem to see it either. Yet property taxes are killing us here in New York State. In some cases, environmental laws have become so extreme that a person cannot even dump sand on his own property because it was labeled a wetlands. SUV's are seen by some as a horrible "evil". Others want to totally ban guns. Political speech has been curtailed by McCain-Feingold. These are hardly Christian agendas, and yet it's all done or trying to be done for our own good. It's not just religionists who are a threat to freedom. I didn't say that there are not others... I said, "there is only ONE organized, majority group of people in the US who claim that most everything they do is for peoples own good." Please don't just throw out words... name another group that fits my description... that was my ONLY point there. I respect the astronauts who died yesterday with the highest respect. They worked in very dangerous conditions to further the cause of science, which really is for our own good. Their lives and their work will carry on even though they are no longer with us, and their determination is an example for us all. Oh, I tend to doubt their lives... will carry on... you're just trying to sneak in another xian Bushism ain't cha? You got caught too! I think you just made my entire point again. That's exactly what Bush does every single time in his Presidential Speeches To The Nation. It's kinda like, all you xians have the same secret decoder ring that Bush has, and Atheists refuse to waste their money to buy one. To me, Bush's mention of God pales in comparison to their efforts to make the world a better place for humankind. There you go again... I love you folks... you know, you're not being very subtle... I love how you guys try to shame people... it don't work on me. I'll just respond to your "pales by comparison" put down by repeating my question... Are you saying that there is absolutely NOTHING your President could say on national TV that would offend you? PEACE!

02-03-2003, 05:02 AM	#66
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	It's Allah's punishment Idiot's statement

02-03-2003, 05:48 AM	#67
emur Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: New York State Posts: 130	Look ybnormal. If you are that worried about a Christian theocracy being established in America because we have a Christian prez who mentions God in condolences to the families of the astronauts, fine. I believe it's not going to happen. It didn't happen with Carter. It didn't happen with Reagan and Falwell's Moral Majority, it didn't happen with Bush Sr and the Christian Coalition (which is today only a faint shadow of what it was), and it's not going to happen with this Bush. Theocratic Christians are a small minority in this country. Hell, America is less than 10% evangelical. Check Barna's site for the breakdown. I have neither the time or the energy to get into a verbal game with you. As such, I am content to allow others to make whatever judgments they wish about our posts and our choice of words. Mel

02-03-2003, 08:16 AM	#69
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	In spite of at least three declarations to the contrary, Yb has never understood why Christians like me are pro-separation. Personally I think he's on a bit of a crusade to find a witch where there is none. I've said I would cut the Boy Scouts off from any govt help but I'm sure he thinks I'm not being honest. YB I've asked you before. Are you happy with the Supreme Court's decisions so far or not? The "theists" lose 9 out of 10 if they are lucky. In fact the only one we've won to my knowledge, recently, is the right to meet and pray amongst ourselves as a school club. Golly gee. We can still pray quietly in public. Rad

02-03-2003, 08:27 AM	#70
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	I think the president's comments were insensitive but mostly made him look like an idiot. He didn't get three sentences out of his mouth before he brought his god into it. He may as well have knocked on the podium for good luck. IIRC the Israeli astronaut was a non-observant Jew, so likely an agnostic or atheist but not necessarily.

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